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Subscribe to RSSA veteran of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, former Marine Capt. Timothy Kudo thinks of himself as a killer — and he carries the guilt every day.
"I can't forgive myself," he says. "And the people who can forgive me are dead."
With American troops at war for more than a decade, there's been an unprecedented number of studies into war zone psychology and an evolving understanding of post-traumatic stress disorder. Clinicians suspect some troops are suffering from what they call "moral injuries" — wounds from having done something, or failed to stop something, that violates their moral code.
Though there may be some overlap in symptoms, moral injuries aren't what most people think of as PTSD, the nightmares and flashbacks of terrifying, life-threatening combat events. A moral injury tortures the conscience; symptoms include deep shame, guilt and rage. It's not a medical problem, and it's unclear how to treat it, says retired Col. Elspeth Ritchie, former psychiatry consultant to the Army surgeon general.
"The concept ... is more an existentialist one," she says.
The Marines, who prefer to call moral injuries "inner conflict," started a few years ago teaching unit leaders to identify the problem. And the Defense Department has approved funding for a study among Marines at California's Camp Pendleton to test a therapy that doctors hope will ease guilt.
But a solution could be a long time off.
"PTSD is a complex issue," says Navy Cmdr. Leslie Hull-Ryde, a Pentagon spokeswoman.
Killing in war is the issue for some troops who believe they have a moral injury, but Ritchie says it also can come from a range of experiences, such as guarding prisoners or watching Iraqis kill Iraqis as they did during the sectarian violence in 2006-07.
"You may not have actually done something wrong by the law of war, but by your own humanity you feel that it's wrong," says Ritchie, now chief clinical officer at the District of Columbia's Department of Mental Health.
Kudo's remorse stems in part from the 2010 accidental killing of two Afghan teenagers on a motorcycle. His unit was fighting insurgents when the pair approached from a distance and appeared to be shooting as well.
Kudo says what Marines mistook for guns were actually "sticks and bundles, like you'd seen in old cartoons with hobos." What Marines thought were muzzle flashes were likely glints of light bouncing off the motorcycle's chrome.
"There's no day — whether it's in the shower or whether it's walking down the street ... that I don't think about things that happened over there," says Kudo, now a graduate student at New York University.
"Human beings aren't just turn-on, turn-off switches," Veterans of Foreign Wars spokesman Joe Davis says, noting that moral injury is just a different name for a familiar military problem. "You're raised 'Thou shalt not kill,' but you do it for self-preservation or for your buddies."
Kudo never personally shot anyone. But he feels responsible for the deaths of the teens on the motorcycle. Like other officers who've spoken about moral injuries, he also feels responsible for deaths that resulted from orders he gave in other missions.
The hardest part, Kudo says, is that "nobody talks about it."
As executive officer of a Marine company, Kudo also felt inadequate when he had to comfort a subordinate grieving over the death of another Marine.
Dr. Brett Litz, a clinical psychologist with the Department of Veterans Affairs in Boston, sees moral injury, the loss of comrades and the terror associated with PTSD as a "three-legged stool" of troop suffering. Though there's little data on moral injury, he says a study asked soldiers seeking counseling for PTSD in Texas what their main problem was; it broke down to "roughly a third, a third and a third" among those with fear, those with loss issues and those with moral injury.
The raw number of people who have moral injuries also isn't known. It's not an official diagnosis for purposes of getting veteran benefits, though it's believed by some doctors that many vets with moral injuries are getting care on a diagnosis of PTSD — care that wouldn't specifically fit their problem.
Like PTSD, which could affect an estimated 20 percent of troops who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, moral injury is not experienced by all troops.
"It's in the eye of the beholder," says retired Navy Capt. William Nash, a psychiatrist who headed Marine Corps combat stress programs and has partnered with Litz on research. The vast majority of ground combat fighters may be able to pull the trigger without feeling they did something wrong, he says.
As the military has focused on fear-based PTSD, it hasn't paid enough attention to loss and moral injury, Litz and others believe. And that has hampered the development of strategies to help troops with those other problems and train them to avoid the problems in the first place, he says.
Lumping people into the PTSD category "renders soldiers automatically into mental patients instead of wounded souls," writes Iraq vet Tyler Boudreau, a former Marine captain and assistant operations officer to an infantry battalion.
Boudreau resigned his commission after having questions of conscience. He wrote in the Massachusetts Review, a literary magazine, that being diagnosed with PTSD doesn't account for nontraumatic events that are morally troubling: "It's far too easy for people at home, particularly those not directly affected by war ... to shed a disingenuous tear for the veterans, donate a few bucks and whisk them off to the closest shrink ... out of sight and out of mind" and leaving "no incentive in the community or in the household to engage them."
So what should be done?
"I don't think we know," Ritchie says.
Troops who express ethical or spiritual problems have long been told to see the chaplain. Chaplains see troops struggling with moral injury "at the micro level, down in the trenches," says Lt. Col. Jeffrey L. Voyles, licensed counselor and supervisor at the Army chaplain training program in Fort Benning, Ga. A soldier wrestling with the right or wrong of a particular war zone event might ask: "Do I need to confess this?" Or, Voyles says, a soldier will say he's "gone past the point of being redeemed, (the point where) God could forgive him" — and he uses language like this:
"I'm a monster."
"I let somebody down."
"I didn't do as much as I could do."
Some chaplains and civilian church organizations have been organizing community events where troops tell their stories, hoping that will help them re-integrate into society.
Some soldiers report being helped by Army programs like yoga or art therapy. The Army also has a program to promote resilience and another called Comprehensive Soldier Fitness to promote mental as well as physical wellness; some clinicians say the latter program may help reduce risk of moral injury but doesn't help troops recognize when they or a buddy have the problem.
Nash says the Marines are using "psychological first aid techniques" to help service members deal with moral injury, loss and other traumatic events. But it's a young program, not uniformly implemented and just now undergoing outside evaluation for its effectiveness, he says.
At Camp Pendleton, the therapy trial will be tailored to each Marine's war experiences; troops with fear-based problems might use a standard PTSD approach; those with moral injury may have an imaginary conversation with the lost person.
Forgiveness, more than anything, is key to helping troops who feel they have transgressed, Nash says.
But the issue is so much more complicated that wholesale solutions across the military, if there are any, will likely be some time coming.
Many in the armed forces view PTSD as weakness. Similarly, they feel the term "moral injury" is insulting, implying an ethical failing in a force whose motto stresses honor, duty and country.
At the same time, lawyers don't like the idea of someone asking troops to incriminate themselves in war crimes — real or imagined.
That leaves a question for troops, doctors, chaplains, lawyers and the military brass: How do you help someone if they don't feel they can say what's bothering them?
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I believe going to church would be one of the best ways of coping with this. All things are possible with God.
Except peace
It really makes no since to bring a moral issue to god/God. Like nature, god is amoral.
know god no peace
no god know peace
A personal struggle with god is possible, but the way of the church is not attempting to have a personal relationship but rather to learn and follow a set of rules. This issue is about a struggle of right and wrong not within the rules or outside the rules.
My father was a WWII vet and he never forgave himself for the killing he had to do. He went to Church all the time but it didnt help. He was always sad. The stress weighed heavy on his heart and eventually killed him.
The VA has sent letters to ALL veterans that ANY type of injury sustained in combat (ptsd, loss of limbs, or any mental ) just like this article is REQUIRED to turn in all weapons they own and forbidden to EVER purchase new ones or they will go to jail, like convicted felons who get caught with firearms...
The government gun grab has started and slowly but surely they will get ALL guns, one little law at a time !
Zack....what a fool...what do you think the CAUSE of this war is????
Men never do violence so utter and complete as when they do it in the name of God
- Author unknown to me
All the war mongers and cowards who supported the war with their silence should be ashamed for the Iraq war. And now the same rinse and repeat will be followed with Iran. Just watch ..
mike-2598123 - I'm not sure where you receive your information from - I have received no such letter. There are actually regulations and federal laws that bar using PTSD as a condition to prevent a veteran (or police officer) from purchasing a firearm. The only exception would be if the veteran's condition was so severe that he/she posed a danger to themself or to others, which is essentially the same criteria that is supposed to be applied to anyone wishing to purchase a firearm.
Spreading rumors and outright lies about how the government is 'coming to take away our guns' does not help the real issues that need to be addressed regarding gun violence and improved controls.
In my opinion, this sort of paranoia and rumor mongering only makes all gun rights advocates look like paranoid, unstable people who are just the sort that most Americans would probably prefer not own firearms.
This is just another reason why we, humans, need to get our egos and anger under control.
here you go mustang reader : “A determination of incompetency will prohibit you from purchasing, possessing, receiving, or transporting a firearm or ammunition. If you knowingly violate any of these prohibitions, you may be fined, imprisoned, or both pursuant to the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, Pub.L.No. 103-159, as implemented at 18, United States Code 924(a)(2).”
This was sent to a navy seal after 5 tours and went to the VA for some meds to relax to do combat stress.
I have been trying to download the 3 pg letter, but this website is terrible... just google VA disabilities and guns and all kinds of stuff comes up !!!!
@mike-2598123
A single case does not constitute a widespread action to deny all vets the right to bear arms.
OHHHH! How true! My oldest Son, a former active Marine, had been in Iraq only 2 weeks when I received a call from His Captain. They were on a roof top. My Son was trying to deal with having just killed a young Iraqi. The very respectful Captain asked me to talk to my Son. I did as best I could. Mostly, I listened. It was hard on My Son. Very difficult for me. The Captain was very professional and tender. My Son went on and did His tour. He's a civilian now. Has 2 little Girls, and a very good job, but is divorced. He's never mentioned this or anything else about Iraq since He came home. He's my son, whom I very much love. He's different though. Very different. He hurts. I can tell. My Son hurts deeply. I can only hurt with Him.
God doesn't exist. Working within the tenets of the stone and bronze age Abrahamic superstition-*everything* that happens is part of the Divine Plan(tm).
Mustang captain - The story is written by Constitutional Attorney Michael Connelly, Executive Director of the US Justice Foundation. The story in a nut shell is that this has just come out and they are looking into it. They have the letter and are receiving calls from vets who have got the letter. Apparently there is no explanation to the vet in the letter on why they have been labeled this way and no apparent recourse to them like a hearing or appeal. That is where the US Justice Foundation comes in. In civilian life you can't be adjudged incompetent without a hearing and evidence. To this point it appears "someone" in the VA now takes it upon themselves to do it without explanation or hearing. Unless "Mike" has additional info this article didn't say everyone was getting a letter.
Reasonable, According to the article I read it's more then one case. The US Justice Foundation has been getting a number of calls from vets that have received the letter.
It sounded like to me this is something very recent and they are trying to get info from the VA on what it's all about.
What is this nonsense? They signed up to be worriers and end up being pussies. War is not pretty and feeling bad about killing scum should not bother you or you signed up for the wrong reasons, like free education and what not. Some kind of soldiers you are who don't carry the load! Whining about what you signed up for makes me puke. There are too many of the enlisted that did sign up because they were losers in anything else.
Disgusting!
I suffer from PTSD related to my service in Viet Nam, and to Hell with anyone who thinks it is weakness. That is, if there is, indeed, a Hell, which I do not believe. It didn't help, either, that we were reviled when we returned to this country.
Shipwrecked = poster child for why people should not engage in sex with animals...
(I apologize in advance to everyone here and the people running this blog for my comment. I do not apologize to shipwrecked. That a$$crack can go f_ck himself)
cav scout/20+ years
@fatbee what you have is not weakness. That's normal human behavior to feel guilt/sadness. I hope you find peace within. Best wishes.
The cause of these wars is people...not God.
Identify the problem. LOL. The problem being that some few people realized that deep down inside they have morals that interfere with their ability to commit murder on command and enjoy it.
Some few might even ask themselves at 3am how we are any different from "the enemy." Whoever that is. I thought it was al Qaeda, but then we made unprovoked war on Iraq when the leader of al Qaeda was Saudi—whom I watched our President holding hands and smooching with on national TV.
So some Americans decided to go murder people in Iraq because a drunken psycho asked them to. And now they realize they didn't just destroy the lives of the countless widows and orphans they created, they didn't just turn a mostly secular country into a nightmare of endless terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, they didn't just murder faceless men, women, and childrenâthey destroyed themselves as well.
What's the big deal? Doesn't every ten year-old kid know that what goes around comes around?
War is hell, boys. Welcome to your nightmare.
Patter123...
And you watched our current president bow the Saudi King. The actions of both presidents were respectfully given and accepted in accordance with the culture and traditions of the host country they were in.
What's it like for someone who has become the very person he or she claims to despise?
Mike-2598123, where did you hear that nonsense? I have injuries from my time in Iraq, and the VA is very much aware of them. They have never asked if I even own a gun. They have sent no letters saying any such nonsense either. All of their letters have been to inform me of types of benefits that they offer.
Also, a determination of incompetence would be made by a judge. That would be a person that was completely unable to function as an adult. That person would be assigned a legal guardian to act on his or her behalf, and has nothing to do with injuries sustained in battle.
She was maybe 10 years old. She attempted to throw a satchel charge into a Med-Cap vehicle with many civilians, Marines and Corpsmen standing there. She was shot before it was thrown, by a Corpsman who was there to help dispense medical treatment. There to help save lives, not end them. There are thousand of instances like this, where a split second decision (right or wrong) will be lived out, will be second guessed, will vividly remain in the mind of those who spent time in a combat zone. PTSD is real, unfortunately for many from the Vietnam war, it is neither recognized or talked about. Personal memories, personal ghosts, that are held privately. PTSD recognition, came way too late. For those from that war, that is the Cross they feel they must bear.
Thank goodness that our VA has moved forward in identification and treatment of problems in recent years.
I agree with you. I hear so many pro-vetrans bashing our President, but if they would look at the record, they would see that this administration has and is doing more for our vets, than previous administrations. Just look up the voting records.
RVNDOC,
I am speaking from experience. I have been in the VA healthcare system since before President Obama took office. The biggist difference I noticed is, now every time you go for an appointment with your PCP you are asked if you have a stable home situation. They never asked that question before President Obama took office. Not that things were ever run badly as far as my own personal experience goes, things seem to run a lot smoother since President Obama took office.
I think the reason they ask about home life is because every 65 minutes a veteran takes their own life, it's a depressing reality that all of us try to deal with. Suicides are killing more of us than enemy combatants. I agree with everything said by the two of you, the first Democrat I ever voted for was Obama, and I feel like it was the first time I really cared about my vote and was nervous about the outcome. I really really wanted him to win, and am relieved he did.
I kind of wondered it it's because of the stat: 25% of homeless people are also vets. Not sure that they would even make it into the VA in the first place, but maybe (hopefully) help could be found for them before they wind up in that situation.
Sorry to disagree RVNDOC - but it has nothing to do with Obama. It has to do with the natural progression, evolution, whatever term you wish to use that has helped the rocket scientist in the VA, military and the mental health community to get their head out of their rectal orifice and realize that the dreams, depression, and guilt are real - not just the sign of a weak individual without backbone or sufficient moral character to cope.
RVNDOC,
I think the current administration has a lot to do with your last statement.
Making sure that the wars we get involved in are just and absolutely necessary for our national interest would go a long way to reducing problems like this.
These young Americans are victims of heavy and relentless indoctrination and propaganda from the time they enter school. The govt and military will do extesive research on how to mind- f%#k these otherwise moral people further once they join the military. Like they don't have enough immoral and willfully ignorant people to do their killing. Some young people sign up thinking they're fighting for freedom and their country but are too young and impressionable to know that we're losing our freedoms and that others are getting rich off the blood and lives of others. So many lives destroyed to keep a war mongering country happy.
Exactly, Cynical. There isn't a single "war", or "military involvement", post WWII that was necessary for the "defense" of the US, notwithstanding the bullsh!t coming from the warmongers. Eisenhower nailed it with his prescient warning about the Military Industrial Complex taking over the economy and foreign policy. The results are nothing less than a catastrophe, and that includes all the delusional Americans that think these expenditures are necessary so we can remain "NUMBER ONE". It's beyond pathetic where a smarmy little toad like george bush can almost single-handedly destroy the economy based on a pack of lies, made possible by decades of brainwashing of a huge portion of the population.
I spent a year in Vietnam as a radio operator, and part of my job was to help call truly brutal airstrikes. It happens that I did not suffer the sort of "moral injury" discussed above. However, that is not to say that I was the least bit happy about what we were doing. So, I came home and pushed hard, in a variety of ways, for an end to the war.
Also, kindly do not "thank me for my service". It comes off as shallow, sanctimonious cant, from people who have no idea what they are talking about. If you really knew what happens when a five hundred pound bomb lands in a village street, you would be both nauseated and thoroughly ashamed that it is done in your name.
The moral problem that I do have is living under the rule hypocritical politicians who have been elected by ignorant idiots.
Finally, if you don't like my attitude, then I suggest you go spend a year killing perfect strangers, and then come tell me how you feel about it. Until then, you are not qualified to have an opinion.
Totally agree, as a Vietnam vet my biggest regret is that we were sent ( I went over in 1970) to kill and fight in a war our country was using as a political statement. "Thank you for your service" is meaningless to me. My service was to a corrupt government that was allowing kids to die when politicians knew they were not trying to win the war. The mistake our government made is denying that would have no effect on the people fighting for them and staring at the evidence every day. And we came home knowing that. With the memories of those friends we lost seared in our memories forever and all that is left is their name on a piece of stone in Washington DC, honored because they fought for some political statement.A waste of our precious young men and women for what? Easy to see why we would come back disturbed..war is hell and those that have not been there or participated in a sham war like Vietnam ( and now Iraq in my opinion) really have no idea what that is like for those with bullets whizzing over our heads and around us every day for a year.
Amen, Dave! Not only are these same politicians hyporcritical-they are "chicken hawks" who never served--much less FOUGHT in a war...but that's not what REALLY makes them so brave. It is the defense/security industry corporate profits they will make (or have donated to their election funds!) So they whip up their minions of angry illiterate flag-wavers in the name of patriotism--and then deny the need for funding for the VA or benefits for Veterans. I used to like John McCain-until he stabbed his fellow Vets in the back! MY, MY ...how they forget where they came from once they get to Washington!
Bless you. I will however, thank you for your service. Radiomen were the life line to evacuuate my wounded Marines. In Vietnam, as you remember, Radio Operators and Corpsmen had a price on their heads. Just carrying a radio made you a specific target. So, thank you for your service to ME.
RVN 1967,1968
Let me start by saying that I never served, so take my comment for what it's worth. I also want to say that I'm no bleeding liberal - I believe some wars are necessary.
The other day I was watching the MSNBC special "Hubris: The selling of the Iraq War". At the end of the show, I had a very unexpected reaction: tears or rage streamed down my cheek - and I mean that literally. I can't even begin to imagine what a mind-@!$%# a show like that would be for someone who served there.
JM-1992894 I also never served in the military but I sent a husband and a brother-in-law off to VietNam. I lived with the way it changed them. I AM a bleeding liberal, JM, but I also believe that some wars are necessary. I would have fought in WWII myself. At least then we had an obvious bad guy and the US was actually threatened. I also watched the Hubris program and felt sick afterward. I wanted to cry for all the US soldiers and for all the Iraqi civilians who were killed. But I believe that all the blame and guilt belongs to the politicians who send our men and women to wars like this. Those who serve do the best they can with all the honor and courage they can and should not be burdened with guilt for doing their job and protecting their buddies.
Here i am. Spent a year in nam, 1969 usmc 1st marine div. contracted malaria, saw war up close and personal. I took life. It did not bother me at that time. Our people were killed and bad things done to them. We reciprocated in full. Killing is bad, war is bad. I am proud of my service for my country. No regrets
Everytime I see articles or opinions about the justification of the Iraq war, I almost snap. Those who have served know the rules. I will say simply that I saw the evidence that no one either knows about or will report about just to keep a smear campaign going. It was justified completely. My father served in Vietnam and I never heard one word about what happened when he was there. He liked to say he spent time in Germany. I just finished my career in the Navy last year. Battleship in the first Gulf war and 2 tours on the rivers in Iraq this time. When I hear thank you for your service, I normally respond with, it was my pleasure to serve. But I will say, my service was for the people of this country, not the government. The corruption that has grown and slowly destroyed what we have here wil be almost impossible to get rid of.
I didn't go to 'Nam - I was in 'special weapons' - the blinding white flash type. You want to talk about potential moral issues - try working on the Pershing warhead knowing full well what could have / would have had it been necessary to USE IT. The army and I did not get along.
I too, was a radio operator in an Infantry Bn., working in the TOC, whether in a Fire Support Base or in a Patrol Base. The TOC was always a primary target for any sappers that got thru the wire. My experiences in the ground attacks at Patrol Base Diamond II and Diamond III have left deep scars in my soul. Wounds that aren't visible sometimes hurt more than shrapnel and bullets. Physical wounds are treated readily and usually heal quickly, but the wounds of the pysche seem to fester forever. Is it really any wonder why every 65 minutes a vet ends the seemingly endless mental pain of memory?
When folks first started thanking us for our service, it seemed that the only people thanking me were those who hadn't served. I felt that they were indeed giving me shallow lip-service and I accepted their thanks grudgingly. When those same words come from a fellow combat vet, they mean one hell of a lot more. Only those that fought and survived while others died on either side of them can understand the degree of guilt we bear. War is hell, surviving war ain't no picnic either.
Dave Johnson says, " ...then I suggest you go spend a year killing perfect strangers, and then come tell me how you feel about it." I have never met a perfect stranger. They all have some sort of imperfection.
mountain lady
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I am a former Green Beret, a combat veteran who worked in covert operations in SE Asia. I spent years trying to come to terms with the disturbance in my soul from failing to prevent others from being killed, seeing my men killed, nearly being killed and killing others. I wrote a book about it to help other warriors in the journey to heal from shame, guilt and ptsd.
I work with combat veterans at WelcomeHomeMontrose.org a non-profit group in Montrose, CO. teaching the martial, healing and meditative art of Tai Chi Chuan.
The book is "Soldier's Heart: An Inquiry of War"
Lee Burkins Author Retired US Army Special Forces
Bless you! Only by bringing this out to the forfront will we be able to help those who struggle with these types of injuries, and they are injuries.
Lee, Where can I get a copy of your book?
Doc
Doc- here's a link to the book:
www.amazon.com/Soldiers-Heart-Inspirational-Memoir-Inquiry/dp/1403394822
The way to stop this in its tracks is to stop sending American troops into civil war zones, and to stop the American government from undertaking unjustified wars in the first place. These elected yahoos act like just a quick, decisive application of American force is all that's needed to put any overseas situation right (just like in the movies) - in & out, clean, no muss no fuss. As we've seen over and over, real life and real war aren't like that.
Another libtard hit piece written and commented on by people who have never been in combat. As far as the VA, I have been in the system since 1984 and it has gotten worse since Obama took office. Longer wait times for appointments, people asking you ridiculous questions about your home life that they have no business knowing, making decisions to suspend your rights to purchase a gun based on zero evidence. Once again you people who have experienced neither combat nor the VA shouldn't even be posting because you have no idea what you are talking about.
Former_Democrat-3026489,
It's a shame you've had such a bad experience with your VA care. I cannot complain about the care I get, they take real good care of me, better I think since President Obama has come into office. And the questions about your homelife, they are designed to help veterans who often are ashamed to say they have no home or a bad home arrangement. Even though they seem intrusive to you, I'm sure those questions have helped many.
So the VA is ordering vets to turn in their guns??? I've been "in the system" for decades, am over to the hospital at least every other month, and I have asked about these rumors and NOBODY knows a damned thing about it except the rants on blogs and places like this. You don't like the VA? Go pay your own way with any docs you want.
As for the rest of this: only Hollywood, gov't apologists, and cheap authors ever thought that there was no cost to the soul of man for being in a war, any war, from any time. The hubris of American politicians since at least Korea, accelerating year by year until WE INITIATED AN INVASION in Iraq, and "nation building" in Afganistan, has involved us in entirely unnecessary wars, killing people we have no business being near, for no legitimate purpose. War is seldom a sane response to anything b/c it means massive attempts to destroy life wholesale. That's what it is about. All else said and written about it is bullsh*t. Mostly, the top ranked people in a nation screw things up, the young and politically weak go off to fight, while the class of people who run the country stay home and make more millions of dollars. Meanwhile, mothers and fathers try hard to believe that their sons, and now daughters "did not die in vain". But of course they did and their parents, in the dark of night, alone, know damned well that they did.
Former_Democrat-3026489
The comments here are full of people who were both in combat and have years of experience with the VA. Appointment wait time would be real short if they didn't do sh!t for you. New procedures have been enacted and doctors have been encouraged to spend more time with their patients... so, yes, appointment wait times are a little longer. They're trying to get out of the pain-killer Rx habit FOR YOUR BENEFIT.
Some people will b!tch regardless of what/why changes are made.
The PTSD issue is real. I have several long time friends that came back with severe issues... they were almost unrecognizable. My cousin turned into a recluse and won't speak a word to ANYONE about what he experienced. It's real. It's not a "libtard" hit piece.
And they're not taking your guns... feeling a bit paranoid are we?
depending on the AGE of the former dem, 1984 was either the early all volunteer army or the latter draftee era. The VA is not perfect - indeed, far from it - and with the current increasing return to "civilian" life by former soldiers what was formerly (late '60s, 70s) mostly physical problem (shot off limbs, various service connected disabilities) seems to be turning now toward "mental health issues" (not to say that there weren't these issues THEN. just that they weren't "primary" as they are now - the physical issues seem easier to deal with.)
Early one morning as I flew into Vietnam on a bombing mission, the early sunlight after a rainstorm made the entire country look like it was covered with millions of sparkling diamonds. I was struck by the beauty of the scene until i realized that each sparkle was a bomb crater full of rain water. We dropped more bombs on Vietnam than in Europe during WW2. We killed tens of thousands of people, sometimes so many that when flying over the target at low altitude, the odor of so many dead bodies was overwhelming.
Do I think about being a part of a strategic killing machine? Only during the day and night. I am stained with the the memory of destroying a country and almost a culture. Americans should think more before asking its sons and daughters to go into harm's way. The cost is substantial, personal and brings no benefit to a person - only images and issues that cannot be buried until I am.
what were you flying? If you were arc light you would have never been low enough to smell anything. From your description, I have to assume you were a driver.
The US killed between 450,000 to 1,160,000 North Vietnamese, and wounded another 600,000.
Between 195,000-430,000 South Vietnamese civilians were killed.
58,000 US troops were killed.
The Vietnam War was completely immoral. The Vietnamese were fighting for independence, pure and simple.
I suffered a Moral Injury when I was in the Navy (at the United States Naval Academy) in 1971 and I was out of the Navy four months later.
I see your point. As a Vietnam War Vet, I see my gains for being in Vietnam. (Shirts at Walmart from Vietnam.)
You do not know why we fought in the Vietnam war do you. Nam, like Korea, was split between North and south. The north was Communist while the south was capitalist. When the split was announced tens of thousands left North Nam for the South. The south was starting to prosper and build a solid economic infrastructure, the north not so much. North Nam began sending the VC into South Nam to extract rice taxes from small villages. If the villages did not meet the demand the village was burned and the residents murdered. The U.S. initially responded by sending in spec ops to teach the villages how to defend themselves from the VC. As the attacks from the North became more violent the U.S. increased military presence. Eventually it became a limited war.
For more detail see the documentary DVD series Vietnam: America's Conflict.
I learned many things they did not cover in history class.
To "The Integral" #10, are you f*cking kidding me ! You suffered a "moral injury" while at the Naval Academy and was booted out 4 months later! My first thought was that the type of moral injury you encountered didn't usually happen until you seeman were at least 5 months into your voyage ! (Apologies to all of the fine Navy servicemen, a good natured inter service dig.) The truth is you need to Man up and face the truth, which is that you were drummed out of the Academy because you lacked the qualities needed to become a Naval officer ! Now you have grabbed hold of the latest terminology being banded about by the mental health industry who are always looking to create a new diagnosis so they can get there theory published and ultimately receive more funding. As they say, follow the money ! Predictably, there always diagnosing some previously unknown disorder, or just re-branding it into a whole new condition that of course will require even more funding for there industry ! Here is an idea, how about providing some outcome based solutions rather than instilling a mindset that teaches everyone with any struggle that they are a victim incapable of overcoming there thoughts! CHANGE THE WAY YOU THINK, CHANGE THE WAY YOU ACT ! It is a task that will not be easy, but it is that simple ! Life is not fair ! You either put forth the effort to move forward and learn the adjustments to better your life, or you stay stuck where your at and watch as the world moves on ! Are we not the masters of our own destiny..... By God, we have opposable thumbs and the ability to think ! Sometimes we need to appreciate that the only victory we may accomplish today is having the ability maintain our own dignity !
ROB,
It took me forever to get out of the Academy. I was on the heavyweight crew team and the coach did not want to see me go, since we had just come in third in the Nationals.
The "brass" gave me three months to just sit and consider, hoping that I would change my mind.
Rear Admiral "Mad Dog" Morris actually admitted that I had a point. I was so surprised that I almost fell off of my chair. I thought that I would never get out of there.
I went on the work on the Space Shuttle, the GPS, the B1-B, the National Aerospaceplane, and Black Programs as a thermodynamics test engineer.
You interpretation of events is way, way off.
When I saw the Flag of the 17th Viet Cong Regiment in Bancroft Hall I knew that I was fighting on the wrong side. They were fighting for freedom. The US wasn't. It was an immoral war, pure and simple.
I am very happy with my decision. I get happier as the years go by, and it was a long time ago.
God never said, "thou shalt not kill" -- it was "thou shalt not murder" -- BIG difference. defending the innocent - defending yourself - defending the world against evil is NOT a sin. and besides ... Jesus died for ALL sin - so even if it were (which it's not), you can still make peace with God for your sin by trusting and believing in His son, Jesus Christ. That will allow the Holy Spirit to work inside of you and keep you from sin - and convict you when you do.
I guess that works for those who believe as you do. Do you have any advise for those who believe differently? And please do not tell me that they cannot find forgiveness for what they think they have done unless they do believe in your form of religion.
Jesus was not in my chain of command. I have read some of his teachings and so far I cannot find anything that is consistent with the orders under which I was operating. It is sort of perverse to engage in war and then ask Jesus for an OK.
Thats right Becca it's not murder if it is just collateral damage in the name of America.
becca7,
Thou shalt not kill means Thou shalt not kill. Period.
Switzerland lives by that commandment. Almost every male in the country is in the army ready to fight an invader, but no one ever invades Switzerland.
The US chose the wrong path in 1945. The US was tempted by the (atomic bomb) Devil, and the US did not resist the temptation.
@The Intrgral #11.4: I vehemently disagree with your last sentence!
sure thing - now just try to figure out WHO was the ENEMY. remember - there has NEVER been a GOOD war or a BAD peace (which is not to say that there have never been JUSTIFIED wars, it just depends on WHO is doing the JUSTIFYING)
Soldiers know when they are truly defending their home, and when they are just fighting for political reasons, or to expand the empire. The one's with "morals", suffer with the knowledge they killed other human beings, and it wasn't justified or honorable. Especially if any civilians are involved. I could see the guilt from that, tearing a person to pieces inside.
This is why it should be allowed for soldiers to abstain on moral grounds, if they don't feel a conflict is justified. Without facing charges or being kicked out. The whole conscientious objector law, needs to be expanded to include anyone who objects for any reason. Not just for religious reasons. This might even prevent some wars from happening in the first place.
If America is truly under attack, there will never be a shortage of fighting men. They sign up in droves whenever there's been an actual attack. But you shouldnt have to be a political pawn to be a career soldier. Its those career soldiers that train the masses of recruits, when theres a real war.
Maybe the military will invent a drug that takes away a mans conscience and then they will be able to kill as many innocent women and children as their sick little minds desire.
peter,
Do you think that we purposely killed as many (or any) innocent people as we could find? What the hell is wrong with you?
Since you have never been in the military, maybe you should just keep your ignorant pie hole shut.
Well NC, I guess you went to Iraq and fought for Peter's freedom, did you? And now you have the right to tell him to shut up because you don't like what he said. Isn't that precious?
I think you killed without caring whether people were innocent or not, because my darling little war-monger, they were ALL innocent. Not one of them, Saddam Hussein included, did anything at all to the United States or in any way threatened our freedom.
People like you, who are so arrogant they think they have the right to tell others on a discussion board to shut up, are eager to throw around their conveyed but unearned power, even if that means dressing up in their little outfits and murdering innocent civilians.
"Ignorant pie hole" indeed.
Interesting how in the article it says that the military is looking for ways to ease soldiers guilt, how about not having them do anything to feel guilty about ? Let's start there.
These fine Americans go to war and fight AND RISK THEIR OWN LIVES for a profit war and then get to come home to a country they don't even recognize and a president they weren't allowed to vote for...how fitting for a hero's return "we honor thee now go F'yourself" that is a bunch of hypocritical crap Mr. President.
THANK YOU SOLDIERS - YOU KEEP US FREE AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHO WORK HARD EVERYDAY AND LOVE THIS NATION APPRECIATE WHAT YOU DO AND DID EVERYDAY...THANK YOU!!!
so are you essentially saying that whatever a soldier does after being ordered to do it makes the act "justified"?
WHY do you think we are in the position of hate in the world that we are NOW IN? Soldiers have no choice - fight or go to jail.
peter, sorry, but that's a stupid comment. When you join the military one should know there may be a good chance you will have to kill somebody. It's a volunteer military. No one is forcing you to join.
Jedi,
Soldiers can vote for president...and all of the other positions as well.
Soldiers can vote for president...and all of the other positions as well.
This is a semi-true statement. As soldiers place of residence (and therefore voting district) remains the place where they enlisted, single soldiers especially, voting by soldiers has to be by absentee ballot. And IF their local units were on the ball enough to get the soldiers to request their ballots by mail months in advance, so they can vote and send the ballots back, the fact remains that except in the case of very tight races (and maybe not even then) absentee ballots are never even counted. This is true not just of soldiers overseas, but soldiers in country. No one is stationed where they live. Therefore the entire military votes by absentee ballot if at all, which is not counted. The opinion of the people who put the most on the line counts the least in elections. There's some irony for you.
Maybe if they got an Oscar-style 'swag bag' when they got back...
http://www.today.com/id/50863576/site/todayshow/ns/today-entertainment/t/oscar-losers-go-home-gift-bags/
Yeah, this country has it's priorities straight....
The problem with military training is that it takes ordinary, decent people who have been taught to revere life, and indoctrinates them to kill on command. Then our government sends its soldiers to fight often-shadowy 'enemies' in a morally unclear cause, with frequent civilian casualties. Our soldiers are honorable and are doing their best to serve their country. The fault lies with our government and its addiction to unnecessary aggression, not with the troops on the front lines.
Well said Patrick!
Patrick:
Well said for an Irishman!!!
It's mostly bred in political wars fought in other countries. The Russians got smart. They now send their people out with radioactive poisons and take out the leaders or whoever they feel they need to. We turn around and send our blood and treasure to fight to fill the pockets of some Nasty Ass rich people. And I mean Americans. With the true meaning of the war a farce, the death tendered is more than a farce. 50,000 plus in Vietnam and the homecoming we received??? The newer wars have no excuse as in a cold war. It is however one sick side of our society using the majority of our people to make $$$ for the minority. I think it's called slavery. Iraq was such a war. If there are wars to be fought, Then hell, let's fight like we did in WWII. No more bull crap. They killed our civilians and we have to kiss theirs in the butt??? Only way to peace is total victory and surrender. Then test the PTSD of our soldiers coming back.
gee bobby - I fail to grasp your premise here. Of course, there was ZERO justification for either IRAQ or AFGHANISTAN - there was ZERO justificastion for VietNam, too. What''s your POINT?
If the Military-Industrial Complex would have not conspired to kill John Kennedy, then chances are we would have never lost 58,000 young Americans in that war. Before his assination he wanted to withdrawl our troops and advisors. Yes, I went, yes I volunteered, but history and education and age has helped me see the whole picture. No one had that benefit when the war was unfolding.
Wow this thread is far more heartening than the Newsvine thread for "Vet Ink Shares Military Tales." Here it sounds like there is abundant humanity left in some veterans that were left as shells by a corrupt and criminal government. Happy to see some veterans see the illegality of unjust and unprovoked wars of aggression rather than the "Boo-Ya" nature of the Neocons' lackeys in the other NV thread.
Veterans from WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan are all dealing with this. Thousands of veterans live with the effects of war every day. They think of those that they killed, their friends who never came home, their families who were there for them, and so many others. There is no easy answer, no off switch, and even with the additional funds being given to the VA for counseling and research just scratches the surface of this issue. PTSD wasn't an issue in 1945 when WWII ended and people were coming home. No one knew about PTSD. The term hadn't been invented yet. However, these young men and women had the same issues that exist today. We just cannot do enough for those who put our lives before their own to keep us safe.
It was not until World War I that specific clinical syndromes came to be associated with combat duty. In prior wars, it was assumed that such casualties were merely manifestations of poor discipline and cowardice. The syndrome that we know today as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder was first recorded during protracted artillery barrages in ‘The Great War’ and was labeled ‘shell shock’. The experience of World War I showed that over 97,000 men were admitted to hospitals with neuropsychiatric disorders resulting in considerable cost to the government through the payment of Veteran Administration benefits. During the early years of World War II psychiatric casualties increased some three hundred percent over those of World War I. (Goodwin, Continuing Readjustment Problems Among Vietnam Veterans, Disabled American Veterans, Cincinnati, Ohio; 1980)
In 1967 military officers in the Surgeon General’s office published a report on Combat Psychiatry. They presented statistics of medical evacuations during World War II, Korea and Vietnam. During Korea and the conflict in Vietnam, approximately five percent of all evacuations were for psychiatric or neurological reasons. In 1943, during WWII, psychiatric evacuations were at twenty three percent. In the early years of 1943 more soldiers were being discharged medically than were being inducted.
The military psychiatrist is in expedient position to easily conserve or diffuse manpower. During World War II, because command considered the psychiatric evacuations as weakening to the number of overall forces, they enforced a policy with a decree that... ‘no discharges from service will be given for psychiatric reasons other than psychosis..’ Although arbitrary and non psychiatric, its affect did halt manpower loss. [Amer. J. of Psychiat. 123: 7, Jan. ‘67]
Lee Burkins Author of "Soldier's Heart: An Inquiry of War"
The VA denied my husbands heart medication because it was to "high in cost". They gave him something else and he died 5 months later from Sepsis, due to a allergic reaction to the medication that was not diagnosed properly. Then when he was transport by life flight to a University Hospital in end stage heart CHF and renal failure they denied the hospital cost and the air transport. A nurse at the VA deemed that he was stable enough to transport to a VA facility. This was 7.5 years ago and I am still appealing. I have very little respect for the VA. My husband would be alive today if not for the VA. His heart problems stemmed from a viral infection to his heart and he was doing very well with a civilian doctor so in my opinion the VA is responsible for my husband's death.
Even the military see's PTSD for the career soldiers. A career soldier coming back for reassignment to another base. That see's the doctor of PTSD, will lose his top secret clearance. The career soldier knows this in advance, to save his current job he won't see a doctor.
It's my belief all of us war vets change somewhat after coming back. Most of us cope with the changes with solid support of family back home. I was blessed with raising my three children on my own after my wife left for her lover boy after I got back. It was an even exchange of love. I needed my children love and they needed my love. I did just fine and never needed to file for PTSD. While my children grew up as responsible Americans.
Soldiers suffer physical, mental, and moral injury, on and off the battlefield. Here at home, Repugnicans only add insult to injury by pushing for reduced military benefits and cuts to programs for veterans. To Repugnicans, the only good soldier is one who fights and dies so that the wealthy can keep their way of life.
Actually there IS a treatment that works for "moral injury," guilt, and loss. Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) is considered one of the three treatments of choice for trauma by organizations such as ISTSS (International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation), the Department of Veteran Affairs, the Department of Defense, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, Departments of Health in Northern Ireland, UK, Israel, the Netherlands, France, and other countries and organizations.
This article is tremendously sad to me, not only because of the pain and suffering described, but also because one is led to believe there is no help or hope. Vets have been helped for over 20 years by EMDR therapy, for as long as EMDR has been around. People with other diagnoses and disturbing life events that include a sense of moral injury and loss find relief with EMDR therapy. Guilt is a huge issue in many, if not most psychological problems, and is usually a part of EMDR processing.
Anyone can use some of the techniques in Dr. Shapiro’s new book “Getting Past Your Past: Take Control of Your Life with Self-Help Techniques from EMDR.” Dr. Shapiro is the founder/creator of EMDR but all the proceeds from the book go to two charities: the EMDR Humanitarian Assistance Program and the EMDR Research Foundation). Anyway, the book is terrific. It’s an easy read, helps you understand what’s “pushing” your feelings and behavior, helps you connect the dots from past experiences to current life. Also teaches readers lots of helpful techniques that can be used immediately and that are also used during EMDR therapy to calm disturbing thoughts and feelings.
In addition to my therapy practice, I roam the web looking for EMDR discussions, try to answer questions about it posted by clients/patients, and respond to the critics out there. It’s not a cure-all therapy. However, it really is an extraordinary psychotherapy and its results last. In the hands of a really experienced EMDR therapist, it’s the most gentle way of working through disturbing experiences.
Question #1. How much does this therapy cost over total treatment time?
Question #2. Does the VA pay for it, or offer it as an approved therapy?
Question #3. For those who are not enrolled with the VA, do insurance companies cover this therapy?
Doc
There's a reason it's a sin without qualifiers. Just because someone says it's war doesn't mean it's right. The killing of those two teenagers was murder.
I tend to agree with you that it was murder - but not committed by the person pulling the trigger. Those who sent him there should bear (or at the very least, share) the guilt for it.
It is unfathomably unfair to send a young man (or woman) into a situation like this, then smear them with a label like "murderer" when forced to kill to survive. The way returning vets were treated after Vietnam is disgraceful.
Shane C: When your life, or the life of your buddies is in jeapordy, sometimes you do not have the luxury of time to think. You just do. Right or wrong, you carry that image, that decision, in your heart and in your mind forever. In a combat situation sometimes you don't have the opportunity to have a sanitized round table discussion, before you act. @!$%# happens in a microsecond. I just hope you never have to be in that situation.
Anyone who goes to war is personally responsible for the decision to participate, draft or no draft.
Lets just say...if you don't want to fight do join the "armed services." I certainly would not have wanted you watching my back in combat.
New rule: Any politicians who want to start a war from now on must be the first ones deployed and must serve on the front lines.
This is one of the best reasons I know of to end war forever. We must learn other non-violent ways to solve our disputes and differences.