You're wrong. You're not entitled to your own definitions.

fetus

Pronunciation: /ˈfiːtəs/

noun (plural fetuses)

an unborn or unhatched offspring of a mammal, in particular, an unborn human more than eight weeks after conception.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/fetus?q=fetus

Mike: boom!reason is correct. Much as you wish it were so, you don't get to make up your own definitions. It makes no more sense to call a fetus a baby than it does to call it an octogenarian. It is neither. It is a FETUS. All your whining to the contrary will not change the facts.

When you get pregnant I want you to refer to the child growing inside you as a fetus lol pwned.... you won't and you know it, you will call it your baby...

.... you won't and you know it, you will call it your baby...

Wow Mike.D34, it must be great knowing everything.

Say hi to God for me at your next meeting.

Mike.D34 said:

When you get pregnant I want you to refer to the child growing inside you as a fetus lol pwned....

pwned? Yes, yes you were.

Does your mother know that you are online? You're too young to be speaking on such matters, and she really ought to be monitoring you.

Boom!, can you clue me in as to what "pwned" means? I assume it is an expression of some sort used by underage males who should be doing something other than annoying people in chat rooms.

Pwn is a leetspeak slang term derived from the verb own,^[1][2][3] as meaning to appropriate or to conquer to gain ownership. The term implies domination or humiliation of a rival,^[4] used primarily in theInternet-based video game culture to taunt an opponent who has just been soundly defeated (e.g., "You just got pwned!").^[5]

In hacker jargon, pwn means to compromise or control, specifically another computer (server or PC), web site, gateway device, or application. It is synonymous with one of the definitions of hacking or cracking, including iOS jailbreaking. The Pwnie Awards are awarded by a group of security researchers.^[4]

Popularity of the term among teenagers rose in the mid-2000s, with the spread from the Internet written form to use in spoken language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn

Not chat rooms, online gaming. Used mainly by children and drunken frats. Rarely used by people who play the game well. It's not a comment used by respectable intellectuals (or good gamers).

MikeD, when I was pregnant (hey, MIKE try being pregnant yourself before telling other people what it's like maybe?) I referred to my daughter by a number of terms, including fetus (also, ninjafetus, kickypants, Hiccupapalooza, and alien intruder). But not as my baby. Because she wasn't a baby yet. When she was born, THEN I said "Give me my baby".

Abortionist would make hitler proud.

Apparently you aren't aware that one of the first things Hitler did as Chancellor was to outlaw abortions. He also mandated Christian prayers in school, and upheld the outlawing of homosexuality.

Face it; if Hitler were around today, he would have been nominated by the GOP instead of Romney instantly.

Dear Soylent Grin, please do not spread false facts/revised history à la GOP to fit your argument. It is undignified. Hitler was not a Christian, he sent to death camps countless Christians for ... acting like Christians and opposing his Nazi genocide, institutionalized racism & eugenics, etc.. , He had tortured and killed catholic priests (e.g. Maximilan Kolbe) , nuns (Sr Teresa Benedicta), lutheran ministers (hung Dietrich Bonhoeffer), made Jehova witnesses wear purple triangles, etc... along with the countless homosexuals he also persecuted. He outlawed abortions only for "aryans", to spread better his "superior race" and started an aryan breeding program, "Lebensborn" between SS and unmarried aryan women to increase their offspring. Hitler ordered hundred of thousands of forced abortions and sterilizations performed on all pregnant German women that were deemed "defective" by his deputies because they were deaf, lame, simple-minded, disabled, etc ... And systematically tried to sterilize Jewish young women in his camps. Hitler put the motto "Gott mit uns" (God is with us) on the belt buckle of his SA and SS, and performed masonic/bizarre weddings/baptism occultic rituals for his SS redesigned to meet the German Saga of the gods (Thor, Freya, Loki) as put in music by Wagner. That is NOT Christianity, that is occultism. Now, no doubt some of the bat-crazy characters running the GOP would have picked him up to run. But let's not become like them and distort reality to fit our narrative/argument. That is always facism. Asian cultures have a much more matter-of-fact description of abortion. The Chinese have always marked their birthday as the month of conception, for 5 millenia's, and simply say when they have an abortion - "we killed the baby". The Japanese have temples for their misuko's (= water baby, babies who never lived past the womb), where women remember the children they gave up to abortion or lost to miscarriage. The debate is not whether babies grow in our wombs, - even a 5-year old knows they do- but to put it forth with simple honesty. If you made a choice, live with it, acknowledge it for what it is. Do not call it something else. Whether one is pro-choice or pro-life, an abortion is always a tragedy, a loss that the mother who had to undergo the procedure is not even allowed to grieve, b/c of all the semantics no-sense. I had 4 friends who had abortions. They needed a shoulder to cry upon and mourn that baby - years later many times, I was not upon to deny their sadness, their loss. They often told me I was the only person they ever felt they could to talk to about it freely, that also could acknowledge they had lost a child, and had a right to mourn their lives

The Chinese have always marked their birthday as the month of conception

No. A newborn starts at age 1. It has nothing to do with conception, it's just a different way of counting.

The Japanese have temples for their misuko's

I don't believe you. Because Misuko is a common name for Japanese restaurants. That wouldn't be a very appetizing name for a restaurant.

Whether one is pro-choice or pro-life, an abortion is always a tragedy, a loss that the mother who had to undergo the procedure is not even allowed to grieve, b/c of all the semantics no-sense.

BS. Every woman grieves and grieves for a lifetime. They sure don't confuse the semantics.

They often told me I was the only person they ever felt they could to talk to about it freely, that also could acknowledge they had lost a child, and had a right to mourn their lives

Not only do you contradict yourself, you also explain why these women feel this way when you said:

If you made a choice, live with it, acknowledge it for what it is. Do not call it something else.

You're saying "you made a mistake, this is your fault."

No, I am just saying that they are hurting, & you are intolerant enough of their tears to negate their feelings. You claim a judgement you maybe once felt upon you, I am so sorry for that. I am not judging you, I do not want you to hurt or be angry, just honest, or at least respect OTHERS who do not feel like you, and cry after such a loss, whether miscarriage or abortion. Mizuko, or Waterbaby is a beautiful word, and these were beautiful children. Inform yourself before negating reality à la GOP: here is the Wikipedia entry on Mizuko. These children ARE mourned. So please go & negate an entire Japanese culture, tell them that their Mizuko temples only exist in their imagination & are a result of a collective hallucination, that only you, as an individual, know reality & their feelings. I am looking very much forward to the response of these moms. Note that even the entry on wikipedia, thanks to intolerant people like you, calls it respectfully "fetus memorial service" then contradicts it by correctly translatingMizuko (水子^?), literally "water child", is a Japanese term for a dead fetus or, "archaically" a dead baby or infant. ALL INCLUSIVE. So, clearly, to Japan, they are one and the same . BUT HEY, even if you do not believe it, they are STILL MOURNING those "THINGS" you call "FETI". Also, Wikipedia acknowledge the practice goes back to the Edo period, but to spare your feelings, questions whether this is a true buddhist practice. But then again, this is a SHINTO practice, so I am not sure why it has to be buddhist. But hey, buddhists have a right to differ from shintoists. Point is. the non-christian Japanese culture gives a simple, heartfelt, deep reverence to these lost children, whether aborted, stillborn, or miscarried, does not judge anybody, and allows simple tears for a short life interrupted and the broken dreams of the mother-to-be, whether broken by illness, societal/family/spousal pressure, a cad of a boyfriend, or an accident. That is not judgement, that is acceptance, and equal rights to mourn for every one who wishes to cry, whether the abortion was willed or a miscarriage or a stillbirth. Tolerance is a two-way street.

ō

Mizuko kuyō (水子供養^?) or "fetus memorial service", is a Japanese ceremony for those who have had a miscarriage, stillbirth, or abortion. This practice has become particularly visible since the 1970s with the creation of shrines devoted solely to this ritual. Reasons for the performance of these rites can include parental grief, desire to comfort the soul of the fetus, or even fear of retribution from the vengeful spirit.

Mizuko

Mizuko (水子^?), literally "water child", is a Japanese term for a dead fetus or, archaically, a dead baby or infant. Previously read suiji, the Sino-Japanese on'yomi reading of the same characters, the term was originally a kaimyō (posthumous name) given after death.^[1] The mizuko kuyō ceremony was used to make offerings to Jizō, a bodhisattva who is believed to protect children. In the Edo period, when famine sometimes led the poverty-stricken to infanticide and abortion, the practice was adapted to cover these situations as well.

Today, the practice of mizuko kuyō continues in Japan, although it is unclear whether it is a historically authentic Buddhist practice. Specifics of the ceremony vary from temple to temple, school to school, and individual to individual. It is common for temples to offer Jizō statues for a fee, which are then dressed in red bibs and caps, and displayed in the temple yard. American religious scholars have criticized the temples for allegedly abusing the Japanese belief that the spirits of the dead retaliate for their mistreatment, but other scholars believe the temples are only answering the needs of the people.^[2][3]

[edit]

So please go & negate an entire Japanese culture, tell them that their Mizuko temples only exist in their imagination

You didn't say Mizuko. You said Misuko. I'm not going to let you stick labels on me when you can't even spell it correctly.

BUT HEY, even if you do not believe it, they are STILL MOURNING those "THINGS" you call "FETI".

I know women everywhere mourn. I had a close personal friend who would get a birthday cake on her due date every year. Some may consider it odd, but I know it was her special way of mourning. The plural is fetuses. You can only have a -i plural if the word ends in -ius. Radius and radii.

But then again, this is a SHINTO practice, so I am not sure why it has to be buddhist.

It's a hybrid of Shinto and Buddhist. In Japan, one's religion is not mutually exclusive of other religions. The Japanese have a way of making many things uniquely Japanese.

Pragmatic, it's best not to engage with trolls.

Thank you MIKE 1.1 That is a baby from the day of conception they are babies, Gifts from God.

The only reason some idiot decided to start calling them a fetus is so they would help women separate themselves from the fact that they are murdering a real BABY when they have an abortion.

The word Fetus was first seen in the year 620, well before abortions were around. You people are too easy to refute.

The more you know.

Please show the link boom.

Hello. The source document is currently down, although that would make no difference on your ability to access it since it requires an active subscription to the British Medical Journal, or a database that includes it. As such, the abstract shall suffice:

Fetus derives from the Latin word feto, I breed, but the spelling "foetus" has been around since at least the beginning of the seventh century. St Isidore, Archbishop of Seville, in a section entitled "De homine et partibus eius" in his Originum sive etymologiarum libri (Books of Origins or Etymologies), commonly known as theEtymologiae (published in about 620 AD)

http://www.bmj.com/content/315/7102/0.9

You're welcome.

St Isidore apparently mistranslated a word from Latin, thus creating the modern definition of "fetus," which is the unborn offspring. He wrote is as "foetus."

Even if you doubt this source, which would be a silly thing to do, the modern spelling (missing the "o") is said to have been around since the 1300s.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fetus

Additionally, it is only a fetus after about the 9th week.

For future reference, it's best to check your information prior to spouting off on the internet as you did so confidently. Did you honestly think the word "fetus" arose very recently?

I've never heard a woman or couple who have learned she is pregnant say, "We have a baby." I've only heard her or them say, "We're going to have a baby." They only use the former phrase after the little tyke is born and takes a breath.

Well, yeah. Story said it's not a case of contagious yawning, nor due to fatigue.

If you spent all of your time floating around in a container barely big enough to give you room to even stretch, wouldn't you be bored?

This kid clearly needs a womb with a view.

Nothing to read, can't watch TV, music is a little muffled, no one to talk with, for 9 freakin months? Yawn.

Nobody is saying that a fetus isn't alive.

Funny how people think it is not alive

No one has said fetuses (fetusii?) aren't alive. And at 24 weeks (six months, 2/3 of the way done), it is at the outside boundary of being able to live outside the womb, albeit with extraordinary technological advances. No doctor would abort this fetus at this point except in an extreme emergency to save the life of the mother, and even then, would be trying to save the fetus as well.

You can't equate the development stage of a fetus at six months with a fetus at six weeks. It isn't viable at six weeks, it doesn't have brain tissue, organs aren't differentiated, and it looks like a nematode. It doesn't have a gender, it doesn't move, and it isn't recognizable as human. It feels no pain because there are no nerves or a brain, and in fact, the cells can continue to divide out of control in some rare cases (not rare enough) and it becomes a tumor rather than a human fetus. (God apparently has a twisted sense of humor).

When you have to mis-represent what people who don't share your position think, maybe you should take a better look at your own.

Thank you, Soylent Grin! You hit the nail square on the head. Couldn't have said it better myself.

For the rest of you who may not know, routine abortions are permitted under Roe v. Wade through the 1st trimester, or up to 12 weeks. No brain tissue, no pain, less than shrimp sized & looking much like--after that there are restrictions. At 24 weeks, as with the fetus shown, the restrictions are extensive. At 26 weeks, a fetus is viable and can live, with hospital care, outside the womb.

But most babies are born between 40 to 42 weeks, and yes, for mom, that's a LOT longer than 9 months! I was aghast at how much longer, the 1st time I got pregnant!

Why? They do breath in there you know...

Why? They do breath in there you know

Mike.D34, do you even have your GED???

"Inhaling" is something you cannot do encased in liquid, as a FETUS is.

WilliamOfRites, with all due respect, you're wrong, there is something called "fetal breathing", they draw amnionic fluid into the lungs. Look it up, there are some fascinating videos out there!

Since we seem to be talking semantics here, we are all both right and wrong at the same time. Fetuses do NOT breathe in the womb. Breathing involves obtaining oxygen for the muscles, organs, and tissues via the cardio-pulmonary system. Fetuses get their oxygen through the placenta and cord.

However, in the later stages of gestation, fetuses DO inhale and exhale amniotic fluid as practice for breathing. I sit corrected partially. My point was that we take in oxygen when we yawn, thus fetuses cannot be doing so, and that is still correct. My terminology was incorrect in that fetuses inhale but do not breathe.

Lisa, perhaps the definition of "yawning" needs to be expanded.

Actually, babies do inhale. They inhale amniotic fluid. They have to practice breathing before they come out. They also swallow amniotic fluid, which is why they eliminate meconium after (and, sadly, sometimes before) birth.

Fetuses DO breathe inside the womb. Kinda like fish, they can inhale fluids. Pretty awesome, huh?

BTW--my 2nd child pooped in the womb (meconium is the first poop)--and now she's 19, 6'3", a star basketball player and captain of the team--and in the top 6% of her college academically. So, it needn't be sad. Apparently she stopped moving when she pooped and managed not to inhale any! I felt her quit moving & she was born three days later. Whew. (I was 43.)

It's wondrous all the way through, but this is not an early stage. This is almost viable, and more than halfway through to birth.

PoliticalDoc: You have a valid point but, c'mon, doc, lighten up a little. Women need to know these things, even if you're not interested. You don't have to watch.

No one argues whether or not it has value. They argue whether or not the value of the fetus is greater than the value of the woman carrying it.

"They argue whether or not the value of the fetus is greater than the value of the woman carrying it."

Not exactly, if we grant that there can be abortions for life of the mother, rape, and incest, we are arguing whether the value of a fetus is greater than the value of the convenience of not having to carry it to term.

Michael: Many pro-life supporters do NOT grant that rape victims or women in health crises should have the right to terminate a pregnancy, so value is definitely subject to debate with them. For your argument, it isn't value being debated but whose needs take priority, the woman's or the fetus'.

BoneFunk: Off the base entirely, Funk.

Fetus sounds un-human

It's the medical term. It has been in use since the 16th century at least. When you want to talk developmental biology, you use the proper terminology so people understand what you're talking about. Your feelings on a word really don't impact the appropriate usage of the word.

If we boiled everything down to their definition then we are all just a clump of cells with no real value except a few more chemical reactions...

Medicine and developmental biology don't deal in metaphysical considerations such as a soul or a miracle. That is for religion. Perhaps terms like fetus have no place in religion, which doesn't deal in cell division or cytokine receptor signaling pathways. Different terminologies for different philosophical topics.

If a fetus was discovered on Mars, they would be saying "How the heck did something that can't survive outside a womb end up on Mars?"

How would they know it was a fetus on Mars? Wouldn't it still be in a shell or a womb? And wouldn't they be looking around to see where the parent was?

They find fetuses all the time in dinosaur digs. I dissected a pig fetus in biology one time.

I think the lack of importance we place on human life is a symptom directly related how much society is willing to support that life, including the money spent on prenatal care, birth, child care, schooling, care of the disabled and elderly. It seems that the same politicians that want to cut Planned Parenthood are the same ones that want to cut Head Start, not have universal health care, and complain the loudest when teachers want reduced class sizes.

Flame: There are 8 billions of us on the planet, which Dirty Energy is relentlessly killing off. Our entire species may not last another 200 years. So what is saving a life to you may be entirely different to somebody else--and hey, you can help be pro-life by adopting an unwanted child or contributing to the fight for women's right to contraceptives. In fact, with your beliefs, you should be fighting for non-prescription contraceptives, and that they should be free.

Flame: This is from the Huffington Post, please read!

Researchers found that a year after seeking an abortion, more than three-quarters of the women turned away were on public assistance and 67 percent were below the poverty line. Fewer than half of those turned away held a full-time job.

These are women who had to carry to full term, even though they knew it wasn't a good option for them or their babies. So exactly what life do you support?

Haha, I'm sure of it, Jonathan! Extraordinarily few fetuses or babies or whatever you want to call them (after all, Corey, "fetus" is just medical terminology, call your baby whatever you like, don't stress over this--it's not good for him(her)!)--are aborted at this point.

All routine, elective abortions occur at or before 12 weeks. Fully half of this 'whatever you call it.'

Which would make those ads a lie, of course.

If Flame up there could get pregnant, he'd be arguing for free abortions. men--sigh*

Not you, Jonathan--you're A-list.

Because after 40 years, the issue isn't settled and everybody has a form of political Tourette's syndrome when you place a keyboard in front of them. Guilty.

DOCJT: Good points you make. Flame has a thick skin, an agenda that allows for no social discourse, and he has achieved his goal of getting attention. He won't answer your questions because as they say, 'my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts.'

I've tried to interact logically with these types of people, with no luck. They are unwilling to listen to logic and have no tolerance for an opposing point of view; but merely want to get their point across. He's a bible-thumper. Well, you will never convince me that that is the end of the argument.

Mozzie-... as long as someone doesn't insult me... I'm glad to answer... and your right.. I have thick skin.. but not a thick head... ergo.. say what you want.. but I'll listen.

It is very true that I have been "limited" in my information... I mean I'm a 20 yr veteran of the military that was trained as a Medic, LPN.. Not much... only have a degree in Business Admin... Nothing to do with medicine after all... DOCJT evidently did not post anything substantive to counter my arguments just decided the best way to "handle me" was to attack me not the facts.

FACT: Abortion due to rape, incest, medical necessity is less than one percent. That leaves my "exposute" (I think you meant exposure) to info limited... but accurate.

For you Mozzie and DOC I'll handle the latter statement one by one:

DOCJT: Rather selective in your definition of "human life" aren't you?

You make my point as I was making with my "ridiculous" fetus on mars comment... Life is Life.. whether its on Mars or in the Womb... we define life AS WE KNOW thus:

life/līf/

Noun:

1. The condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional...
2. Living things and their activity: "some sort of life existed on Mars". (sic)

I know... GOOGLE should not have used that "ridiculous" Mars example... If I was you I'd write a letter and tell them to remove it.

What's your stand on the death penalty?

Life begets life... To preserve society, evolution (to the popular belief/fact) caused man to extend natural laws into written laws... Those laws were agreed upon by the masses..in short they govern yours AND my life.. If you decide to kill some one because you felt that no longer needed that "arbitrary" thing called life... no other reason it's called Murder... that LAW does not change (though many have tried) for the yet to be born. Suicide? hey it's your choice.. do it discretely and no one can stop you.. but its called Self-Murder... never mind the spiritual ramification.. In the world you (and others) espouse... murder of self or unborn is fine... maybe we are spending way to much money on educating people against suicide.

How about same sex relationships?

I guess the LeGiBiT community can be as "Gay" as they want to be.. One doesn't have to make laws for what people do in the bedroom... They are entitled to the same "protections" I am. Though they may want to be equal in Marriage, they can't reproduce. No matter how you slice it... Put them all on Island... Evolution dictates that within 50 yrs.. no more society... as much as Supporters of the "equality" for LeGiBiTs they need us "straight" people to keep on going... Hey... give Evolution another 4.5 billion yrs... that might change.

Respect and tolerance for other religious belief systems? Put down the mask of hypocrisy. It presents a disgusting image.

Since I'm a Christian.. I have a set of religious beliefs... I understand Why others of different beliefs give their own importance.. in other words.. I understand them even if I disagree. When I talk to a Buddhist, Muslim, Taoist... I'm respectful in my discourse.. I find it fascinating that those that have no religious view to speak of have so much to say about those that do. I'm not "down with" strapping bombs to people and causing wanton destruction for a cause.. I can "respect" an individual right to belief (or not believe) any way they want.... I assume by asking the question.. you feel the same way. On this we agree. Thanks for your response.

And Mozzie-600.. Keep trying to interact logically with people.. I tend to never give up.. I hope you don't either. I tolerate your point a view.. I never EVER vote to ignore or collapse a comment (unless it is just vile) that is opposite of mine just because I "disagree". The same has not been afforded to me but hey, I'm on a left leaning blog.. what do expect.. equality? Naah.

Flame77, I appreciate your thoughtfully answering DOC's questions. In reading your statements, I understood that because the death penalty is law in this country, you do not object. Correct me if my interpretation is in error. If you do not object to murder by the state, I'm wondering why that is, since you say that "life is life", and thus, it should be no different (in your philosophy) than a "murder" in utero. Again, I am wondering why "pro-lifers" aren't railing against the death penalty in addition to trying to change the law regarding legal abortion? The viewpoint seems selective and contradictory to me.

And there it is, mozzie. The supreme hypocrisy of the "pro-life" crowd.

Well some do... (one vote each for responding) But as you break the law.. you are subject under the judgement... not my judgement.. the judgement of the laws that are in place... I think it silly to fine a person for littering.. but that is the law... Now... i did not write it.. If you feel it is unjust then YOU rail against it... It easy to say "this or that is unjust" but when you need justice.. (whether you agree with it's various forms or not) It is by those very laws to which you, we run. That's not hypocrisy... that is the Law..

In marriage... A legal contract between two people. You break that contract.. It can be "cancelled" Divorce.

Stealing... you will be arrested

Murder... outside of self defense.. you are jailed AND possibly handed the death sentence... I would be at the mercy of the court.

It is even so that if you kill a woman who is pregnant.. you can get charged for two killings....

I do agree with all the above... I follow Gods laws as best I can AND also endeavor to be law abiding citizen... So tell me which law do you disagree with DOC... Mozzie?...

I don't agree, like Obamacare.. but the SUPREME court judge it lawful... like it or not... that is the law... yes.. I do rail against that law but until things change we are stuck with it...

Not hypocrisy... but the Law. One might try to say "The Bible said love thy neighbor." True... God's Law... but what if your "neighbor" breaks that "contract"... he becomes subject under the law of Judgement... "But the Bible said don't judge.."... This is what Jesus actually said about "mans Law"

Mat 5:25-26 KJV Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. (26) Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Translation... Don't do the crime unless you can do the time.. True.. following God's Law supersedes mans law BUT.. If obeying God's law OPPOSES man's law then you can enjoy the Mercy and Grace of God.. BUT you suffer the Judgement of man..... Hypocrisy?

Somedude - And either way, it's legal.

isnt this the truth?? Just have the baby and give it to a couple that cares and cant have kids of their own.

tlc-sacramento - Just have the baby and give it to a couple that cares and cant have kids of their own.

Your comment is far too simplistic and naive. There is a good chance the couple you refer to is selective about what kind of baby they want to bring into their family, and I'm 99% sure they don't want a permanently disabled baby, or a drug addicted baby, or a baby of another race than their own. These kinds of babies are now available, and their chances of being adopted to a permanent, loving home, and be cared for (sometimes it takes 24 hours a day and a lot of money) are very slim. It's presumptuous for you and others who think like you do that if the mother will just choose not to have that abortion, everything will be wonderful for her baby. Not so. Perhaps you'd like to adopt these many babies who are in the condition I mentioned. If not, why not?

SomeDude: All of us (you included) try to separate ourselves from negative experience; that's totally natural, funny or not.

Make no mistake--you cannot understand this because you are not a woman--no woman takes abortion lightly. The women I know who've had an abortion wrestled with it, felt awful about it, and have never forgotten the experience. Some accept it was the right decision but never forgive themselves for it.

Whether or not one ever wants to have children, the timing may be wrong, the man may be wrong, the money may not be there, the woman may not yet be a woman--women make their choices for important reasons that are completely NOT, "Oh, guess today I'll have a facial and abort this thing in me."

It's my body at work to make a potential person: I'll bet you notice any new growth on you, from facial hair to moles, warts, and pimples--do you begin to understand, then, that you cannot ever know--how a woman must be responsible???

If men were as responsible as women, abortions would never be necessary. That's the bottom line here, guys.

Actually Dee you make a very good point (1 vote for your point)... Us "guys" don't know what its like... we don't have to "carry" the baby for nine months and then suffer the pain of birth. BUT I do know what it's like to be a Father... of course that means more than conception. I'm not sure about the "timing"... You know I think timing is less involved than sheer knowledge that "I must see this thru."

My wife went into quick delivery and there was no time to get to the hospital... I called an ambulance and while they were on the way I had to deliver our daughter on the bedroom floor.. I guess when you hold that life in your hand... as a man you understand (a little) what it took to bring that life into the world.. You do get a appreciation that life is precious.. circumstances and timing not withstanding.

I wouldn't force anything on anybody .And I don't expect the Govt to . This is between a woman and her maker . All I'm saying is you're stopping the beating heart of a defenceless child . You get to wrestle with that after . Not me .

Yes sir.. Got into foster care.. Have a Grown "son" now.. still calls me Dad though there was no official adoption... He got a kid now himself consider me the "Grandpa" and when people see him (all 6'5 of him) they say "we look just alike"... He has more issues than a virus/hacked computer.. but Love him no less.. I could not be prouder :) ... (Flame sticks his chest out, smiling

tlc: See comment #1.2.

It is until it is born, and since one cannot adopt until after birth, the wording was exact and appropriate.

Thank you John Kaye!

Say what you want , you're still stopping a beating heart and a life .