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Subscribe to RSSToo much alcohol can ruin a man’s appreciation of irony and block feelings of empathy. And that’s true even when he’s sober, a new study suggests.
Scientists suspect that chronic heavy drinking damages parts of the brain that are crucial to decoding others’ emotions and to processing humor, especially irony.
“Chronic alcohol abuse seems to have effects on the perception and decoding of emotional expressions,” says Simona Amenta, a post-doctoral researcher at Italy’s University of Milano-Bicocca and a lecturer at the Catholic University of Milan. “It has been associated with … deficits in emotion recognition and verbalization, leading to difficulties in distinguishing and comprehending people’s emotional states.”
Some studies, in fact, have shown that alcoholics tend to misidentify the emotions of people they are interacting with, Amenta notes. So sadness can be mistaken for anger, while happiness might come across as a negative emotion.
To look at the impact of chronic heavy drinking on emotion recognition, Amenta and her European colleagues tested 22 men who were in their third week of an alcohol detoxification program. They compared them to 22 men who were not alcoholics, the team reported in the journal Alcoholism: Clinical & Experimental Research.
All 44 study volunteers were asked to read a series of stories that concluded with either a straightforward sentence or an ironic one. They were then asked to complete a questionnaire designed to determine whether the men could understand the emotional states of the characters in each story and also detect when characters were speaking ironically.
The men would need to be sensitive to others’ emotions to be able to determine whether a character’s concluding statement was straightforward or whether it was conveying the opposite meaning -- in other words, whether it was spoken with irony.
One example of the type of story the men were asked to read was about a dinner party: “Sarah invited her coworkers over for a work dinner and asked everybody not to be late.”
Some of the men received a version of the story with a straightforward ending: “Paul is the first to arrive. Sarah says: ‘You’re right on time!’”
Others got the story with an ironic ending: “Paul arrives when the dinner has already begun. Sarah says: ‘You’re right on time!’”
As it turns out, the drinkers were much worse at detecting irony. In fact, they identified ironic sentences correctly only 63 percent of the time, as compared to 90 percent of the non-alcoholic volunteers.
What this means is that problem drinkers can completely misinterpret what they’re seeing and hearing.
Lara Ray, an assistant professor of psychology and psychiatry at the University of California, Los Angeles, isn’t surprised to see differences in how alcoholic and non-alcoholic brains work. Chronic alcohol abuse changes the brain, she says.
The kinds of misinterpretations alcoholics make might predispose them to getting into the fights that seem all too common in bars.
That, plus the fact that alcohol is a disinhibitor. “So those who are higher in aggression become more aggressive,” Ray adds.
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My husband hasn't had a drink in 20+ years, but I see a lot of him in this article.
Aw. Get him some empathogens like MDMA or ketamine (in the right doses, of course). It'll fix him right up. There are other proper ways too but they'll take more work.
does he go to meetings?
It's called a Dry Drunk. You can quit drinking and still have a thinking problem. AA works best in these cases especially when you run out of options...........
Hey Carolyn,
Like the article says, it doesn't matter whether they are drunk or sober. I see this in a couple people I love. One feigns compassion one minute and proves he has only the ability to say the right thing in the moment, but has no ability to follow through with compassion later. It's the most bizarre thing until you correlate it to alcoholism. I always forget that he just isn't wired for compassion because he really can say the right thing to make me feel he does care --- but two weeks later will come up with something so hurtful.
The other just isn't compassionate at all and that's the way he is.
I guess we have to love them and just practice detachment.
Carolyn-1500288>>>>Congratulations to your husband on his 20+. I think the reason you are still seeing aspects of this behavior is because he may have stopped drinking, but he hasn't accepted that he can't. Once he accepts, you will see a different man. Good luck.
As the husband of a recovering alcoholic woman I can tell you the same is true for them......alcohol destroys the brains ability to function. Too bad it's legal to sell this poison.
My dad stopped drinking 4 years ago. This is so true. You say something and get the most bizarre response. He also says something hurtful that he just perceives as a statement of fact. I have told friends and relatives that he has lost an appropriate social filter. He told a server at a restaurant that she would be beautiful if she just lost weight. We took her aside and apologized and explained his condition. You should have seen the releif in her face (and the smile from the side tip we gave her). It is sad but you deal.
Stone sober, narcisstic, ego-maniacs with a huge sense of entitlement can't feel empathy or pain in others either. I know this from personal experience.
For the record, the people who helped collapse my comment above are extremely dumb, and don't know anything about the proper use of various drugs. They were probably brainwashed in high school with anti-drug propaganda, and never grew out of it.
AA is a religious-like cult. There are alternative support groups for people who abuse alcohol and wish to stop. AA is NOT the end-all be-all for everyone.
People concerned about their drinking should confess it to their physician. Sometimes what the person needs is treatment for depression or anxiety. Other times, drugs like Anabuse or naltrexone can help break the cycle, along with counseling. Not everyone can abstain just by attending kumbaya support groups.
I cant help but wonder if it's possible for kids, raised by a drunk (or two drunks) could wind up exhibiting the exact same traits, without ever having drank alcohol in their lives.
These seems like traits that one could easily learn growing up and seeing as "normal" behaviour and never really have a clue.
I think we call them sociopaths.
I can't help but wondering if this study isn't catching some of the causes of heavy drinking vs. the results of heavy drinking.
To do this experiment fairly, you'd need to know if these people could catch irony and interpret emotions BEFORE they were ever heavy drinkers.
Is it possible that some people with alcoholic tendencies start to drink more and more as a RESULT of not really fitting in with the world around them?
I think so -- raised in a dysfunctional home teaches dysfunctional coping skills
Middle Molly's point is valid. To the lady claiming she sees this in her husband 20 years after he stopped drinking... have you ever paused to think that he's probably just not that good at reading your emotions?
Read the example. People with undiagnosed learning disorders, dyslexia, poor reading comprehension in general, or people who simply are bored and inattentive would also miss the excuse for "irony".
I think many of the commenters are miss-attributing all manner of problems to alcohol.
You two have it right! Abstaining from alcohol and abstaining from alcohol coupled with changing your thinking/patterns are two completely different things! My father has been technically sober for a few months shy of 30 years, but he hasn't truly behaved and "thought" like a sober person for more than the past 12 years. The difference is something that most people can't understand until they experience it. With alcoholism (and addiction in general) being a family disease, I have plenty of experience with other family members as well. A changed outlook and a different system of reacting to and coping with life's joys, fears, challenges, and events is a MUST to restore a sober life.
And for people like amietamant who don't understand the importance of changing one's behavior and mind with a program like AA (which is NOT a "religious cult"): you must know next to nothing about addiction, the absolute destruction is causes, and the reasons why. Taking Anabuse and other drugs (which usually just become a replacement addiction) doesn't change the way an addict reacts to the world and the resulting consequences of those reactions (for the addict and everyone around them). Alcoholics Anonymous has been a literal life-saver for hundreds of thousands (some sources say millions) of recovering alcoholics around the world and is widely recognized as the best addiction recovery program, hands down (ever wonder why all reputable addiction recovery programs use the Twelve Steps??), yet you think that prescription drugs and talking to a physician are the answer? Ignorance at it's best there... AA isn't about religion, as much as you'd like to think it is. It's obvious you know little about the program. The infinitely miniscule number of people who have "successfully" used all these "other methods" you tout are less than 1% of the total recovered addicts who stay sober, but keep preachin'. <<Sarcastic LOL>> AA and the programs that have been developed to mirror it are successful and have proven themselves to be over decades and decades.
You say that people who've used all other methods of beating alcoholism have a less than 1% success rate. No, we just don't advertise that we're "recovering alkies". I know longer see alcohol as a big part of my life, so why would I devote so much of my life to booze by attending meetings with other people who feel powerless over their compulsion to drink?
I'm honestly happy it works for you. But "dry drunk"?? Great, carry a label that says you can't ever be taken seriously again because you boozed it up back in the day. Carolyn's poor husband (1st commenter) probably hears "honey, that's the rum talking" whenever they have an argument after 20 years.
Unless there's actual mental impairment (measured by real tests, not this study) either own up to being a jerk, narcissist, meanie, or just having a lousy personality, but quit blaming the booze.
Finally, accepting there may not be a higher power (who knows?) is a great first step away from problem drinking. It forces you to accept that YOU and you alone are responsible to make the brief time you have alive meaningful and beneficial to your fellow humans. That's heavy, and sobering. Vs a faith-based approach to sobriety, which essentially assures you that failure on this earth doesn't really matter anyway, because a happy eternity awaits.
ps-AA is great for some people, but I think it's more like 1/4 rather than the 99% of success stories claimed. It also does a great deal of harm by setting up a rather dismal model of what "sobriety" looks like.
I agree with Middle Molly. Some symptoms reflect Autism spectrum disorders. Children on the spectrum have no or poor social filters and will literally say whatever pops into their heads. The difference is with children it's forgivable, but with adults there is a higher expectation. Since many adults likely suffer from ASD but are undiagnosed they may turn to alcohol to help them deal with all of the other issues it presents (sensory processing disorders.) I don't buy that alcohol, in moderation, can cause a long-term problem for anyone.
I also am in whole hearted agreement with Molly. my BF and his two siblings are all alcoholics and are all precisely as described. but their parents were not drinkers. the parents are, however- surprise surprise- selfish, insensitive, and almost totally lacking in empathy. they are also extremely controlling and critical, and pummel their children with guilt on an ongoing basis for not being good enough. I really think it is the result of upbringing and/or maybe some underlying genetic twist that creates this inability to connect with others. and they drink because they realize there is something 'off' about them and they can't make it go away any other way. my family is full of drunks, and they were all brought up with some kind of emotional or verbal abuse as well. becomes a chicken-and-egg question after a while. the connection with autism spectrum is intriguing docotrdonna, this is the first time I've heard it
Jessica, you absolutely cannot just throw the word sociopath around. There have been many studies done on children of alcoholics. Many of my clients are children of alcoholics. The studies find that these adult children that very rarely if ever drink actually have more compassion due to the fact they were always on guard growing up and learned to read body language and facial expression early as a coping mechanism. These people also tend to be over achievers as they have learned to over compensate for their parents by becoming great at sports, school, etc. Children of alcoholics that drink fall into the same cycle as their parents. Jessica you need to look up the term sociopath--there are few true sociopaths in this world.
The missing link here is the gratitude a recovering alcoholic needs to exhibit and must continuously show if they are to lead a generally normal life. AA reminds us to "remember when" so we can be aware of our shortcomings when we were drinking and do our best to avoid those character flaws while sober.
No question booze abuse messes with our brain but the end result is recovering alcoholics need to work therapeutically through the situation as anyone must who has any form of brain impairment.
This study is a joke. No way you can draw wide conclusions on ANY subject matter after examining only 23 people. Am I the only person here who has noticed that people in general seem to be much more self-centered and selfish then they once were? Recovering alcoholics have enough heady issues to work through without this kind of nonsense making the mainstream news. May God bless those who are still in that extremely dark and frightening place - I'm 18 yrs. sober and still working at maintaining it.
I know a guy who NEVER drank--and he has no ability to feel empathy and/or compassion. In fact--I know MANY men like this (none of whom are alcoholics).
Jessica: "I cant help but wonder if it's possible for kids, raised by a drunk (or two drunks) could wind up exhibiting the exact same traits, without ever having drank alcohol in their lives."
OMG! You could be 100% correct! The fellow to whom I referred--who NEVER drank but has no ablility to feel empahty and/or compassion--was, in fact, raised by a severely alcoholic father.
Thank you!
A counselor once taught me ( adult child of alcoholics) that it takes 3 generations (after one seeks help) to change the behavior even if there is no drinking, due to the coping and behavior patterns that they have been raised with or exposed to (like drunk Uncle Charlie ). I said well it ends here, and the 1st generation starts with me.
Alcohol is the most insidious, addictive and destructive drug there is. Also being known as the opening drug.
Amietamant--
I don't know where you got your information about AA, but I would like to counter with my own experiences.
" AA is NOT he end-all be-all for everyone." Nor does it pretend to be. AA merely represents itself as a program that has worked for many others.
"AA is a religious-like cult." I don't know what would lead you to call AA a cult. Do its members have strongly-held beliefs about what works and what doesn't? Of course. Is there a spiritual element to
AA? Yes, although the interpretation of this is left to the individual. Nobody will tell you you're wrong.
For that matter, if you don't want to come to AA anymore, beat it. Nobody will chase you down in the parking lot. People attend AA to take care of themselves and to help others who want help. AA does not waste energy on people who don't want to be there.
"There are alternative support groups for people who abuse alcohol and wish to stop." Yes, there are, and you'll find many of them have a lot in common with or are even modeled after AA.
“People concerned about their drinking should confess it to their physician”. This is never a bad idea. If your doctor is smart, he or she will refer you out for help with your problem. They might even suggest AA. If your doctor isn’t so good, he or she will just prescribe anabuse or naltrexone and send you on your way.
"Anabuse or naltrexone can help break the cycle…" I’ve known alcoholics who can take those drugs and keep right on drinking. I’ve known others who don’t take their pills (alcoholics are excellent liars). The only thing that breaks the cycle is a desire to break the cycle.
"...along with counseling". If you want to pay a counselor $100 a visit (or more) to help manage your drinking problem, be my guest. I find AA to be a much more affordable.
“Not everyone can abstain just by attending kumbaya support groups” I sense a lot of butthurt. Did the court force you to attend? Whatever. AA does not hold grudges. If you show up one day and want help, you’ll get it.
Relaxdontdoit--
Nobody knows what causes alcoholism. But for many, it is intertwined with their self-image, their past and in what they perceive to be their defects of character. Such people often find it helps to treat alcoholism as a symptom of a greater, underlying problem.
Consequently, if these same people find a way to stop drinking but don’t “unload their baggage”, they really haven’t tackled their problem. These are the so-called dry drunks.
Is a person automatically a dry drunk because he or she quit drinking cold-turkey? I don’t know and it doesn’t matter what I think anyway. It’s up to the individual to decide if they have a problem and what (if
anything) to do about it.
If this was the case Alcoholics Anonymous wouldn't work because you need to read peoples feelings to help them. Detoxing for a few weeks doesn't help it's silly
That explains it! Living amidst many who always attempted to define my feelings for me made me come to terms with their alcoholism. The article brings back clear memories not only of crazy fights that came out of nowhere, but also of how I was able to finally get that it was them, not me that created the fight.
Much better now that most are not involved in my world, but the memory of always wondering how I was so totally misunderstood still affects me today. Same people, with limited contact, can still make me crazy. Thanks to 20 years in AlAnon -- I know the program works as long as I work it.
AA works for those who want to stop drinking -- that doesn't mean they want to start having better relationships, but most actually do start to understand emotions.
You say that it all still affects you today...have you heard of or tried Al-Anon? It's a program for the friends and family of alcoholics (although it works wonders for family and friends of all who suffer from addiction--the results are so much the same regardless of what the addiction is). Al-Anon changed my life, and continues to do so every day--literally. If you're interested, check out www.al-anon.alateen.org. Whatever you choose to do, best wishes to you!
Oops--I just saw your post a few below this one... Apparently you are familiar with the program. :)
What about those who are dry alcoholics, different from recovering alcoholics? My father-in-law is a dry alcoholic and has all these symptoms too.
As stated earlier this is a dry drunk and they have to realize on their own. Sometimes just asking them what they are thinking and to explain their thought processes so you too can understand will help.
I have known people who have NEVER taken a drink who exhibit these same signs. Intensive counseling worked wonders but for all intents and purposes they were dry drunks.
It took a major failure----like being unable to complete school and alienating the vast majority for their friends to figure out it was a personal problem.
good luck my heart goes out to you in your struggles.
same thing -- or worse -- they just fly off the handle.
If any of you are seriously dealing with the conflicting emotions this generates -- check out an Al-Anon meeting near you. There are plenty, they are anonymous, and you will get what you need.
Google AlAnon for a meeting in your area. I am not a representative of the program, nor am I advertising. Just offering info.
I truly sympathize. I have found that when I recognized it is really just a childish temper tantrum life became much easier. Alcoholics are a lot of times less mature than a child 10 years of age.
And then there are those that never drank but fly off the handle in a childish temper tantrum. Sometimes we just need to grow up and be responsible for our actions.
There is a pretty strong link between alcoholics and narcissists. Narcissists don't even pretend care about you unless you're currently giving them gratification so it isn't surprising that alcoholics do the same. Having one trait doesn't necessarily mean someone has the other but they do often go hand in hand.
be careful about believing in Al-Anon which isn't much more than a circle-jerk of pompous self-congratulatory discussion. Al-Anon is based on the principles of AA but for the family members of drunks.
Dry drunks that are still jerks are more than likely narcissists.
If you would care to elaborate I'd be open to reading it.
Wow, you sound really angry. I have been involved with recovery for many years. Alanon is helpful to so many. Too bad not for you, it might help with your resentments.
Birdman, It's obvious from your post that you've had some, but quite limited, exposure to AA and Al-Annon and for you it wasn't a satisfactory one. However, in the 43 years I've been sober, I have had many occasions to see both the successes and failures of these programs. If you met self-congratulatory people in Al-Anon, that is proof of the success of their program, since they are able to stop their co-dependent support of their alcoholic which makes them eligible for self congratulations in my opinion. Perhaps you were expecting Al-Anon to help you get your alcoholic sober, but that isn't it's purpose. It's purpose is to help you to come to terms with yourself and your involvement in the life of an alcoholic. It's also a place where you can get help confronting your own reasons for staying in the relationship and deciding if you want to continue it. Try again, with this as your goal and see if it doesn't have a different impact on you.
As for your comments abouts alcoholics and narcissists, again such a generalization isn't a help. When I was drinking I suppose I was narcissistic, as my life was all about getting my next drink, which took all my energy. After sobriety I became a quite different person and through the program of AA I have learned that I am much happier when I put others first. Along the way I became the person I was always meant to be and I know for a fact that I am empathetic and compassionate as a real character trait that is the basis for my life. It took a long time and lots of work, but the program does work, if you work it. What really disturbs me is that you seem to think that a narcissist has choice and choses to be self involved. Most negative character traits are either genetic of environmentally created, as are the finer ones. No one sits and thinks about it decides to become a narcissist. I think maybe, you're just really angry with an alcoholic person in your life because they aren't changing the way you want the to. Try the serenity prayer, and remember that the only thing you can change is you. Only God and sobriety can change the alcoholic. I'll pray for your peace of mind, friend.
Lady C - I wont put words in birdmans mouth, but I know a few people going through recovery. The ones who applaud themselves the most (and most often) are the ones relapsing all the time.
The ones who quietly just do what they need to do and dont look around for applause and pats on the back for "all their good work" - seem to be the most successful.
I know my experience is a small sampling...but I imagine it would be hard for someone like me to go through AA or Al-Anon, given it's religious underpinnings.
You dont want to drink, dont ask god - just do it.
I come from a family of alcoholics, and yet im not one...I used to fear being one because of my grandmother and seeing my parents enjoy the booze more than it seems they should...but ive come to understand, you are whatever you want to be.
I dont want to be an alcoholic, as such, I dont drink often...and I dont get @!$%#faced when I do.
Though, dont get me wrong, I can see how easy it would be to become that, if it's what I really wanted.
Im a fan of taking personal responsibility, understanding you can get addicted to anything you want to get addicted to, so it's not a disease, it's just a lot of crappy choices with lots of bad outcomes - and it's all on you.
@JBirdman
Circle jerk? That's offensive. But putting that aside, if you are the person needing help or support to understand what's going on for you, AlAnon offers exactly that.
If you could put aside your bias, you might open your mind to finding what is good about these type programs. In 20 years, I've been to many different meetings. Some do indeed feel like a self congratulatory pity party -- but most of the time, the program with its traditions for guidance, is a great place for people to learn and grow personally.
I'm sorry you had a bad exposure, but many others have gained much from being a part of the fellowship.
It is not a cult.
Ladyc- I didn't intend to dismiss the AA organization as a whole but I may have come across as doing that. Personal experience is that many people just replace their co-dependance on alcohol with the meetings gaining the euphoria of the attention from other members. I'm glad you mentioned co-dependence that is something I forgot about.
Jessica- I believe the first couple sentences of your post are a much more elegant way to describe what I intended to say. I would agree with most of your post so feel free to put words in my mouth. =)
Coachnancy- I'm sorry about the CJ, it is inflammatory but I couldn't think of a more succinct way to describe it.
In this scenario, Sarah is not being ironic, she is being sarcastic, which has a more malevolent and disapproving overtone. This is not a symptom of alcoholism, this is evidence of poor experimental design on the part of the researchers. The only other reasonable interpretation is that she is being gracious to an obviously boorish guest. In either case, it is not irony.
Critical Citizen -- that was my interpretation: that Sarah was being nice and telling her late-arriving guest that he was right on time. The story doesn't say the guest arrived and apologized for being late. Nor that he did not. This story is more a Rorschach test on us, the readers, rather than an example of rude behavior. I think somewhere our discussion about it is being analyzed.
irony: the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning. Saying "You're right on time", when he was late. It's possible she was just being nice, but if she was being sarcastic, she was being ironic (in this case at least).
Oh Critical - I believe that Irony and Sarcasm are like twin brothers.
very much the same thing, but not exactly the same.
How does one know if a person is an alcoholic? Is it the amount of alcohol they drink or the trouble they cause after drinking?
It is somewhat subjective but generally when excessive drinking harms relationships, hiders career options or causes health issues it is alcoholism.
Erica1>>>>For an alcoholic "one drink is too many, and a hundred are not enough." Typical alcoholic behavior is that he/she will not stop drinking until they have drunk everything in the house, or they pass out. An alcoholic will never turn down a drink, would rather drink than eat and will put drinking before their family, job, health, people's safety, ad infinitum. Sooner or later there will be a DUI or two, a divorce, a loss of a job, jail or death. If you are thinking of anyone in particular then just remember that most people will enjoy a couple of drinks and leave it at that, an alcoholic thinks a couple of drinks are a waste of time and will refrain if no more alcohol is available. To an alcoholic is you can't get drunk, then what's the point of drinking.
Julia, I like your definition. It describes a neighbor I used to know. He lost his job, his house, his wife, his thumb ("saw accident") and got a DUI before he got treatment. Alcoholics have an addictive behavior pattern and are also usually heavy smokers.
I guess my parents arent drunks then - they do drink every night, after work, at least 2-3 gin and tonics and likely to the point of being drunk, but not wasted. It doesnt affect their work life, or personal life, they dont get in trouble they dont cause trouble, its just how they "unwind" at the end of the day.
Though, when we do have parties or family get togethers...they get to the point of falling over. It's just not how they drink every day all the time...and having A SINGLE drink and nothing more isnt the end of their world.
So given your definition, I dont think they are alcoholics - just enjoyers of the drink.
My brother on the other hand might have fit this very definition too, but he has 2 small children - and his wife essentially told him to sober up and help raise the kids, or get the hell out. Hence, AA.
I guess it all matters whats happening in your life and how it affects people...drinking a few drinks every night after the work to the point of passing out and not being able to help with the kids = alcoholic, or at the very least, a drinking problem.
Whereas my parents dont have kids to worry about, and if they slide into bed a bit tipsy - no harm, no foul, I guess.
Truthfully, only the alcoholic can self diagnose. If your parents can stop drinking, they probably are not alcoholics. But they may be maintenance drinkers --- only they know the truth.
I think Coachnancy has this one right. Many, many alcoholics are "functional alcoholics" and their stories may line up a lot with your parents'--my father was a functional/maintenance alcoholic. But she's right, that usually only the alcoholic can know for sure in cases like that, and sometimes the denial is so strong that even one that has had multiple alcohol-related "problems" (failed relationships, job losses, DUIs, etc.), they still don't think they have a problem. Sometimes people on the "outside" (ie: not the addict themselves, and usually addiction professionals) can determine that a person is an addict/alcoholic because of specific behavior patterns. Addiction IS a disease, it is NOT a choice. No one wakes up one morning and says "I think I want to be addict, so I'm going to do more drugs/drink more, etc.".
Jessica you have what is called functioning alcoholic parents ( you can google it) Here is a test--see if they can go a week without a drink. Going a week without a drink never killed a non-alcoholic. If they can't go that long-- yep--they're addicted.
Kallie, don't be a busybody. It works for them. Leave it alone.
How does one know if a person is an alcoholic? Is it based on how much and how often they drink alcohol or how their personality changes after they've been drinking?
If alcohol affects their relationships or their work, they are an alcoholic! Or their life and their ability to function, they are alcoholics! Doesn't matter how much they drink or how often!
I just divorced an alcoholic man last year after 25 yrs. of marriage. He had been to rehab, Va psy ward (3 times) and done AA for 2 yrs. It didn't matter whether he was drunk or sober, he was mean. After rehab, in his dry drunk stage he was as mean as ever.
His brain function in social relationships was always lacking. Some call what they have "stinking thinking". If I went to Al-Anon, he accused me of having an affair with someone there. I could not even have a conversation with him in the last yrs. we were together because anything I said was twisted around in his brain into something negative. No one has to do a study for me to know that alcohol seriously damages the brain.
After 25 yrs. of being the only one trying to make the marriage work, I finally gave up! Ihad to make a decision to save myself or him. I knew he would never stop his abuse so I left him. He would love to have me back but it will never happen. It' really sad that a person of our age could not get the big picture!!! He chose a beverage over me.
I think alcohol should be outlawed!!! I would prefer to deal with someone smoking pot- they are usually more mellow and less abusive!!!!!!!!!!!!
[tested 22 men who were in their third week of an alcohol detoxification program.] 3 weeks? It takes months(6 or more)to get the brain to return to a sumwhat normal chemical state. Hell, within 3 weeks they could still be halucinating and still having DT's.
What I question is the directionality of the study. This describes my ex-boyfriend quite well, but he's also not an alcoholic. He was, however, severely abused as a child and continues to suffer from the effects of the trauma, which he turns to other substances to mask. So I'm wondering if it's the early experiences that wire the brain in such a way that makes it difficult to interpret emotion, and if people with such experiences then have a tendency to turn to alcohol to mask their pain and so end up as alcoholics. In other words, it's not the alcohol that changes the brain, but the early experiences, which also lead these people into alcoholism.
Excellent question, could structures be damaged by an extreme prolonged traumatized state of mind? Addiction would be a side effect?
Sometimes though, I think people are just @!$%#s and like to drink too much. Besides I think they noted damage to specific areas of the brain due to alcohol.
It would be interesting to see numbers showing the number of alcoholics with traumatic childhoods. If the early trauma didn't cause the damage directly, it's still the cause of the alcoholism which did. Sounds like a nightmare.
From what I've read on the subject you have hit the nail on the head with alcoholism being a symptom of something else.
J-Birdman>>>>>Some people can become alcoholic by excessively drinking and therefore, becoming dependent. However, that is the exception, rather than the rule. Alcoholism is genetic. You can have the best upbringing in the world and the happiest life, but you can still be an alcoholic.
Genetic predisposition for addiction and pleasure seeking behavior plays a significant role in the onset of disorders. Alcoholism is a subtype of addiction in the way breast cancers is a subtype of cancer. Breast cancer even has several variations caused by different gene mutations. Someone born with no genetic mutations can develop addictive behavior, someone abused as a child can grow up an not beat their kids but those are individual examples not terribly relevant to the whole population. Genes, environment, coping mechanisms all play a role towards increasing the likelihood of developing a problem. Children abused even less than 2 years old actually develop altered brain chemistry which is strange giving they haven't developed an identity or even the ability to remember yet.
Excessive drinking does alter brain chemistry but excessive drinking doesn't happen to someone that is truly happy and healthy which I would liken to the way people that commit suicide aren't mentally healthy, there are always some underlying symptoms.
J-birdman I am guessing you are well educated on the subject.
Personally I am in complete agreement with you re: AA / Al-anon etc. and yes there is a genetic predisposition along with environmental factors but it can be either or both or possibly neither.
I know some Veterans who did not become alcoholics until the PTSD set in and given these are Nam Vets PTSD wasn't even recognized until many years after the "conflict" ended. They never recieved treatment for the underlying disorder and self medicated.
It is awful to see.
Totally agree. I use to take a friend who was a vet to a counselor. He does drink a lot but not in a damaging way. I'd wait in the lobby during his sessions and one of the other counselors use to come out and talk to me while I waited. She was semi-retired old gal and did counseling on the side for fun, she had all sorts of plaques on her wall in her office. Anyway one time we got onto the topic of how she saw similarities between abused children with PTSD and soldiers with PTSD, expressions of fear, numbness, nightmares etc. The differences were merely the words used to describe those emotions. The tremendous compassion society gives to abused children I also feel towards "psychologically wounded" vets now. I agree it is awful to see.
I get a little weary when we say "genetic" - we are all capable of addiction, we just select our poisons differently. some addicted to food, some alcohol, some drugs, some sex...
Also, when we say genetic - that implies our parents or someone in our family has the same issue. Could it not be a learned behaviour then?
We see fat people who have fat parents...drunks who drunk parents...drug addicts who have drug addicted parents...perhaps our genes desire the thing we become addicted to more than anything else, or perhaps we just take a liking to what we grow up knowing.
at the end of the day, I tend to be weary of "addiction" or "disease" - because so many people manage to make a choice NOT to be that anymore and take the steps to recover and be different.
of course your brain chemistry has changed, and the pleasure zones still want it...that doesnt indicate disease. thats rational. i like peanut butter cups, becoming allergic to peanuts didnt change my desire for it peanut butter. but the migraines, yeah i'll skip the peanuts...but I smell peanut butter and im like "oh what I would give to have one peanut butter cup!"
am I an addict? know, my brain just remembers what it enjoys.
I like the way you think Jessica, I'd much rather it be considered a disorder.
Jessica -- I totally respect your opinions and I understand what you're getting at. I'm not trying to say that you're completely wrong, but the facts are that science has proven that addiction (alcohol, heroin, crack, whatever) does have some genetic basis though. There have been dozens of studies published in peer-reviewed journals. It's an accepted fact. Also, addiction is medcially defined as a disease, per the DSM-IV. "Choice" is a very gray area. Yes, strictly technically speaking, an alcoholic "chooses" to drink that first drink, but subsequent drinks aren't a choice, they're a compulsive behavior that isn't "chosen".
You choosing not to eat peanut butter isn't the same thing. You may really, really like peanut butter, but you're not chemically dependent on it and your brain chemistry hasn't been changed by it so that you suffer compulsive and uncontrollable behavior in regards to eating it, regardless of the consequences you will suffer. An addict will consume their substance of choice even if they don't want to, because they physically can't stop themselves, even if they know that the consequences of them drinking/smoking crack/etc. are things they don't want to go through. Do you see the difference?
Is this story a joke?
It's not a joke, but the study has major flaws, first you have a group of alcoholics in 3rd week of rehab, that alone could cause chemical changes that might make an alcoholic less tolerant.
They should test a group of functional alcoholics when they are sober, I'll bet there would not be a substantial difference.
If the article on the study is accurate and relatively complete, it should be a joke.
How does the study account for the myriad causes of lower reading comprehension vs lack of empathy?
The study doesn't even begin to deal with correlation vs causation.
I have 30+ years of sobriety. I become emotional when watching the news and I see the terrible things that we humans may inflict upon each other. I often must fight back the tears when I see something of great beauty or the pathos in a movie or TV show. I sometimes feel great remorse for the things in my past that have hurt others and are now impossible to remedy in any manner. This started when I had about 5 years sober.
Also the dry alcoholic I am referring to also does not have any..... Compassion and often accuses others of things he does , like controlling , manipulating, almost like he is looking in a mirror and taking out the anger on the one closest to him. This mirroring thing .... At thoughts on that.
Humbleiowa------it may help YOU to remember that adage about how we dislike others for the same traits we dislike in ourselves.
(not you the alcoholic)
That being said given the alcoholic is often unable to take responsibility for their own actions it is easier and makes them feel better if they can project those disliked qualities onto you.
It is also common for the alcoholic to nit pick and tear apart everything good in your life in an effort to make themselves feel better by making you feel at least as bad as they do.
Avoid the person and do not hide the reason why---do not lie to them explain exactly why. The truth from all whom they know might be the thing that works.----eventually----good luck it is a hard road to travel.
+100 to what Lexiwords said. It seems like you have a lot of personal experience with alcoholics.
Relax. What you are experiencing is a normal reaction and shows you have returned, or are returning, to sanity from chemically induced damage.
Richard, question.
I am dealing with someone who is dry but not in treatment. Has quit several times, but just came out of detox a week ago, went home and has been meaner than ever. This article describes him. And I have no doubt there is brain damage, how long before that brain damage is repaired if he is dry but does not work a program or go to any treament is there any hope that the brain damage will get better . Or will the dry drunk behavior go on forever ?
You're better off not interacting with that person even if they are a close family member, they will only drain you dry emotionally. Having someone projecting their shortcomings onto you is a terrible form of manipulation and cruelty, don't suffer it even for a family member, you will get tucked up and probably not even realize it. I absolutely know what you mean about the odd mirroring behavior and the cruelty towards those closest. I would recommend reading a little information about narcissist personality disorder because there are a lot of parallels between the outward symptoms of narcissism and dry drunk if you intend to cope with your alcoholic.
While liver cirrhosis can't be repaired because of too much scar tissue accumulation the brains of chronic alcoholics tend to merely atrophy and can in fact heal. Once they get into the late 50s or 60s though then it tends to become permanent and starts to resemble dementia. Having a healthier brain though doesn't necessarily mean they are going to be a kinder gentler person.
Reading this article brought me back to my childhood and my mother's second husband. Total alcoholic in denial. I cannot wait until Kurt E. H3rm@nn of Sterling Heights MI drops dead. During my formative years was so terrible that he would not allow me to visit my own father. This butthole could not even carry on a coherent conversation when she finally divorced him. By then I was so used to living with an alcoholic that I married one who beat me just like Kurty Squirty did, and then....my mom almost got back together with the dude. Bottom line, Kurt, you're a jerk and I am glad that you are getting out of life exactly what you put it and you are getting what you deserve. I am bitter because you cannot see my success and I never got the closure of telling you how I really feeling until now.
Maybe people who become alcoholics are just emotional deserts to begin with. They only care for themselves. Maybe that's why they become alcoholics, not the other way around.
Alcohol impairs your judgement? Hmmm.
Alcohol is legal, pot is not. Logic anywhere, anyone?
Pot is moving towards legalization.
Are you saying they should do studies like this on pot before more states legalize it? Is anyone concerned about pot users driving impaired since there isn't a agreed upon impairment test that law enforcement can use similar to a BAC test?
My only quibble with this story is that, unless I missed it, the alcoholics in question could have had these behaviors before becoming alcoholics. Could it be that guys who cannot empathize are more likely to become alcoholics? I think the F. Schrodinger (post #16) could be correct.
Both my parents were alcoholic and then I married one. I was blessed in that I hate the taste of alcohol and I never got into it. I think this is absolutely true in every way. I on the other hand, being the one sober one in my life, seemed to feel the necessity to empathize for them I guess. I have stronger emotions, and I have a tendency towards depression if I don't watch out. I don't know if I am horrible at relationships, or maybe I expect too much, or maybe I just pick the wrong types of people but for whatever reason, the only lasting relationships I have been able to keep have been with my kids. Alcohol definitely rules my life, without me ever touching it.
It has been my observation that alcoholics come from all walks of life and have all manner of psychological makeup. I like to call alcoholism an equal opportunity life destroyer. It is not possible to generalize about who has the potential to become an alcoholic. One thing that is an absolute certainty, once an alcoholic always an alcoholic. The reprieve is total life-long abstinence from alcohol.
I don't agree with the study discussed in this article. I know many recovered alcoholics that have put their lives back together and appear to be as emotionally normal as non-alcoholics. They may even be a little better adjusted because they have to continue working on themselves to stay sober.
Some people who act this way may just have personality disorders.
I beleive this article, I grew up in a home with an alcoholic father and even years after the drinking stopped the cruel behavior continued.
I have problems with this study, because of the three weeks into treatment and limited to only 22 alcoholic men. Why weren't alcoholic women included? How do they know that these men's thoughts weren't just befuddled because of the circumstances of treatment? Why didn't they include men and women that were actively drinking and men and women at all stages on the journey to sobriety? Did these 22 men have other diagnoses, such as narcissism, bipolar disorder, personality disorders, PTSD?
But having asked all that, I could have hypothesized this myself after 30 years of marriage to an alcoholic, and I am curious about the beneficial results such a study, done correctly, could provide. After years of sobriety, is the brain damage reversible, or is it permanent? If it is permanent, can alcoholic men and women be taught to accurately read others' emotions?
I was always frustrated with my ex-husband because he didn't "get" my jokes, constantly asked me why I was mad when I was obviously having a good time, or vice versa, didn't know I was mad when any other fool would. He didn't even understand why I would cry at sad movies, and the more I tried to explain, the more frustrated I became. He just didn't connect. I always thought it was because he was just a jerk, but later educated myself and found out it is much more complicated than that. Believe me, though, he is a jerk, a narcissist, a survivor of childhood abuse, a liar, and many other things, as well as a severe alcoholic. So it's difficult to tell which came first, the chicken or the egg, and I don't believe this one study can answer that question.
Educating myself didn't make things any better or easier for the alcoholic, but it certainly made it clear to me that I was in way over my head and, thus, moving forward with divorce and my own life without tons of guilt and anger was the obvious and happy choice. I did attend Al-Anon meetings for a short period of time, and the meetings were filled with very kind people who did "get" my emotions. While the spiritual aspect of Al-Anon wasn't for me and I pursued other avenues to seek the answers to my questions, it is an excellent program, and the people there are empathetic and comforting. And after I moved on, the alcoholic did seek sobriety and is working the 12 steps. He does seem to have glimpses of sanity every now and then and is beginning to recognize that other people have justifiable emotions. So may be time will tell the answer to this question. I wish him the very best.
I'd like to know more too. The study indicates that they tested folks in their 3rd week of detox.
This is my ex, to a T. It's why I left him. He grew up with an alcoholic father who would come home and beat the mother, and became an alcoholic who, when I was with him, was verbally abusive and in denial of his problem. When I broke up with him and he couldn't understand why, I told him that over the course of our relationship, I tried everything I could to get through to him about how and why the things he said and did hurt me. He never "got it". After a little over two years, whatever feelings I had for him were completely gone.
A few months back I googled his name out of curiousity, only to find a mug shot from 2010...arrested for domestic abuse. I look back now and feel very lucky that his abuse had not escalated into physical violence while we were together and that I was able to leave him safely.
shoot....give him another chance. He's GOING to change!
What, out of his orange jumpsuit? LOL.