Bioethicist: US children suffer from vaccine exemptions

How easy is it to avoid getting your kid exempt from school shots? Too easy -- if the epidemic of preventable diseases sweeping through many states are any indication.

It's nearly August and that means the start of school and important vaccine shots for kids entering kindergarten, elementary school or day care. Free, back-to-school immunization clinics are opening up nationwide to provide shots, depending on the state, against a whole range of diseases, including  mumps, measles, rubella (German measles), diphtheria, Hepatitis A, pertussis (whooping cough), tetanus, flu and polio.

What you may not know is that a scary number of these diseases are at epidemic levels in the United States. Whooping cough, an illness that many Americans over 30 thought had disappeared, is at the highest rate among children in the US in fifty years. At least 18,000 cases have been reported in 2012, more than twice as many cases as there were at this time last year. Nine infants have died from whooping cough this year. In addition, an estimated 214 children contracted measles last year in the US, the largest outbreak of a nasty infectious disease in 15 years.



Part of the problem is, too many parents are refusing to get their kids vaccinated against whooping cough and the other horrible diseases that have returned, sickening, disabling and killing children.

There are school requirements for vaccination and, undoubtedly, vaccine rates for most children are still very high. But all states permit exceptions. Two states, Mississippi and West Virginia allow parents to opt-out only on medical grounds -- if the child has an immune disease or is violently allergic to eggs. That seems reasonable.

Other states allow vaccine exceptions for parents who claim religious reasons. While there are few religions that are specifically against vaccines, some states, including Maine, Colorado, Washington, Texas, Vermont, Arkansas and Minnesota, allow parents to say “no” to vaccines for any reason, using a so-called "philosophical" exemption. That is a problem.

California, which has had its own miserable experience the last few years with disease outbreaks and deaths in babies, has one of the easiest vaccine opt-outs in the nation, allowing parents to refuse vaccinations for their children because of personal beliefs. Recently, Democratic state representative, Dr. Richard Pan, proposed a law that requires any parent who wants to send a child to school without the required vaccines to document that they have had a face-to-face conversation with a health care provider about vaccine risks and benefits.

That's a pretty simple law that raises the bar a bit on what can be deadly vaccine exceptions. The bill is in committee, but anti-vaccine groups are buzzing like hornets, looking to get it defeated, as they did with similar efforts in Vermont earlier this year.

In fact, in the name of personal freedom, anti-vaccinators have been pushing to make it easier for parents to opt-out of vaccines in a number of states.

The United States is paying the price in death, disability and misery of allowing anyone who wants to, for no reason supported by medical science, deny vaccines for their children. Vaccine refusers put every other kid, baby and immune-suppressed adult at greater risk of getting infected. Freedom of choice is a great thing -- except when that choice leads to a possibly fatal outcome for your child.

 Arthur Caplan is the head of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center.

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Part of the perception problem with vaccines is that you can point to a child who had a reaction to a vaccine, but you CANNOT point to a child whose life was saved by one. You just can't know who would have died if not for a vaccine; all you can do is look at numbers before and after. And the numbers speak very clearly - vaccines save lives. You just don't know which ones.

  • 3 votes
Reply#23 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:38 AM EDT

When I was a young child I vividly remember going to the school multi-purpose room to get our sugar cubes with the polio vaccine. Parents were so grateful to have the vaccine-polio was a terrifying disease and I am old enough to remember kids in my class who had had polio and were disabled from it-and they were lucky that they didn't end up in an iron lung. Watched a facinating documentary about the development of the polio vaccine and it really hit home what a blessing it was. Too bad more people don't have this historical perspective and realize how fortunate we are to have vaccines available. My kid had every one on them, including the newer HPV vaccine.

  • 1 vote
Reply#24 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:22 PM EDT

I am not taking any chances. My 2 yr old son is fully vaccinated against all these nasty germs that was once believed to be eradicated. I am 33 weeks pregnant with my second son. In my county alone, there are 24 cases of pertussis. My OB recommended to get another pertussis vaccine before he is born so I can pass on some immunity to him. Got my appt this Friday!

  • 1 vote
Reply#25 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:14 PM EDT

It is always the same.

Fine them HEAVILY if they don't vaccinate.

Wacko's hiding behind religion.

Flush them out, and if they can't present an acceptable rational, then remove custody from them and give it to someone who shall get with the program.

  • 1 vote
Reply#26 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:39 PM EDT

I was thinking no immunization no insurance coverage when child gets sick. Its ignorance like using non iodized salt.

  • 2 votes
Reply#27 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:11 PM EDT

I'm pretty sure that even the thinking people on this subject (those that vaccinate their kids) have no idea why using iodized salt is important...sadly.

Sea Salt is not iodized.

    #27.1 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:00 PM EDT
    Reply

    Eric claims that vaccines are 100% safe. He claims he's a medical doctor also. I'm not making this up. He denies serious vaccine injury exists. It's hard to take someone seriously who claims this AND claims to be a practicing cardiologist.

    • 2 votes
    #28 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:22 PM EDT

    Eric didn't make any such claim....

    I'm so sick of people like you who claim this type of crap falsely.... for the record, I am a nurse, who's seen first hand the realities of children, who don't receive their vaccinations and end up hospitalized, because they have idiots for parents.

    I am the parent of an autistic child. Wake up, autism is cause by genetics.

    • 4 votes
    #28.1 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:07 PM EDT

    robert,

    are you really talking about me on other threads?

    I never said vaccine injury doesn't exist. I said YOUR idea of vaccine injury doesn't exist---that is, people dying left and right, or having seizures with long lasting consequences

    I even detailed for you in a post in which I described what a severe reaction might look like

    Why do you lie?

    • 2 votes
    #28.2 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:28 PM EDT

    Eric didn't make any such claim....

    Have you read all of his posts. Then how could you possibly claim he's made no such?

    I never said vaccine injury doesn't exist. I said YOUR idea of vaccine injury doesn't exist-

    Oh, now you change it. How could you possibly know what my "idea" of vaccine injury is. Please post the citation where I said people are dying left and right?

    for the record, I am a nurse, who's seen first hand the realities of children, who don't receive their vaccinations and end up hospitalized, because they have idiots for parents.

    You're an emotional one at best with your name calling. If what you say is true then you have a good case of confirmation bias.

    I am the parent of an autistic child. Wake up, autism is cause by genetics.

    Because you believe it to be so? Autism is NOT caused by genetics. There is no such thing as a genetic epidemic. Of course unless you don't really believe there is autism epidemic. And even if a few cases were caused by random mutations that doesn't mean that all causes are from this.

    Do you believe regressive autism in normally developing children is caused by a genetic switch? I don't think so. Do you believe that vaccines can cause "autistic like symptoms"? Or is this impossible?

    • 2 votes
    #28.3 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:09 PM EDT

    I even detailed for you in a post in which I described what a severe reaction might look like

    Why do you lie?

    Your "idea" of vaccine injury is a red spot at the site of injection and crying until the band aid is put on.

    You didn't describe vaccine induced encephalitis did you?

      #28.4 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:11 PM EDT

      Have you read all of his posts. Then how could you possibly claim he's made no such?

      have you?

      Oh, now you change it.

      Never changed. You just can't read apparently.

      How could you possibly know what my "idea" of vaccine injury is.

      because youve posted about the topic ad nauseam

      Please post the citation where I said people are dying left and right?

      Right after you post the one where I said no form of vaccine side effects ever happen ever

      You're an emotional one at best with your name calling

      Id like a nurse like her that cares for her patients that she feels so strongly about it

      Because you believe it to be so?

      cause its true. There is very little in life that is purely environmental or purely genetic. Any educated person knows this

      There is no such thing as a genetic epidemic.

      What?

      Of course unless you don't really believe there is autism epidemic

      define epidemic

      And even if a few cases were caused by random mutations that doesn't mean that all causes are from this.

      robert, consistency is not your strong suit

      Do you believe regressive autism in normally developing children is caused by a genetic switch?

      in part, yes

      Do you believe that vaccines can cause "autistic like symptoms"? Or is this impossible?

      There's no evidence to suggest this. You know there are no impossibilities in medicine. But again, no evidence

        #28.5 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:16 PM EDT

        Your "idea" of vaccine injury is a red spot at the site of injection and crying until the band aid is put on.

        Most commonly, yes. And its my opinion, that of most all physicians, and of the CDC. Your opinion is shared by you and Jenny Mccarthy

        You didn't describe vaccine induced encephalitis did you?

        Did you?

          #28.6 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:18 PM EDT

          Eric, please explain to the thousands of parents awaiting compensation for vaccination injury, how uncommonly such injuries occur.

          Explain why the demise of their child's health due to vaccinations is acceptable for the greater good of other children.

          Explain why manufacturers and doctors should not be held accountable when vaccinations cause irreversible harm.

          Or, you could just pull the old Jenny crackpot card.

            #28.7 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 12:30 PM EDT

            "Children with a mitochondrial disorder may develop normally for a while, but when stressed—perhaps by infection or fever—they may be unable to make all the energy that they need. The brain requires a large amount of energy. So, when these children are stressed, the brain is the place most often affected; brain injury of this type is often called mitochondrial encephalopathy."

            Eric, is it possible that a vaccination may cause permanant brain damage to an individual with an undetected mitochondrial abnormality?

            If so, how does a pediatrician screen for an underlying predisposition towards such an injury?

            Isn't it true that there currently is no set protocol or screening procedures in place to determine whom may be at risk?

            If so, how can we conclude that such injuries are in fact rare?

            Aren't we simply applying the poke and hope method of safely vaccinating our children?

            Please explain.

              #28.8 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 2:19 PM EDT

              Eric, please explain to the thousands of parents awaiting compensation for vaccination injury, how uncommonly such injuries occur.

              Most of them have no case as most of their injuries are not due to the vaccine. If you can prove otherwise, please do

              Explain why the demise of their child's health due to vaccinations is acceptable for the greater good of other children.

              Explain why manufacturers and doctors should not be held accountable when vaccinations cause irreversible harm.

              Or, you could just pull the old Jenny crackpot card.

              see above

                #28.9 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 6:04 PM EDT

                Eric, is it possible that a vaccination may cause permanant brain damage to an individual with an undetected mitochondrial abnormality?

                Honestly, I have no idea. Id like to see some evidence if you have it

                If so, how does a pediatrician screen for an underlying predisposition towards such an injury?

                that disease is not indolent, it is not "screened for". Its like asking how you screen for a broken arm

                Isn't it true that there currently is no set protocol or screening procedures in place to determine whom may be at risk?

                I am not aware of any disease that is an absolute contraindication to vaccination that is not explicitly obvious which requires screening that is not done routinely in the postnatal period.

                If so, how can we conclude that such injuries are in fact rare?

                because serious side effects are rarely reported among all-comers. They are rare, period. Thats a fact

                Aren't we simply applying the poke and hope method of safely vaccinating our children?

                No. Safety of vaccination is well established

                  #28.10 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 6:08 PM EDT

                  Eric, please explain to the thousands of parents awaiting compensation for vaccination injury, how uncommonly such injuries occur.

                  "Most of them have no case as most of their injuries are not due to the vaccine. If you can prove otherwise, please do"

                  How do you know? You don't even understand how many of these individuals had an underlying mitochondrial dysfunction, or how it could result in their vaccination injuries. Not your area of expertise, so don't talk out of school.

                  Eric, is it possible that a vaccination may cause permanant brain damage to an individual with an undetected mitochondrial abnormality?

                  "Honestly, I have no idea. Id like to see some evidence if you have it"

                  I know you don't. I guess you missed Gerberding admitting this could happen.

                  If so, how does a pediatrician screen for an underlying predisposition towards such an injury?

                  "that disease is not indolent, it is not "screened for". Its like asking how you screen for a broken arm"

                  Oh, now you can't screen for a mito disorder? Wrong again Eric. Wow, your ignorance on this topic blows me away considering that you are a cardiologist.

                  Isn't it true that there currently is no set protocol or screening procedures in place to determine whom may be at risk?

                  "I am not aware of any disease that is an absolute contraindication to vaccination that is not explicitly obvious which requires screening that is not done routinely in the postnatal period."

                  Yeah, that's the problem. Screening for mito disorders are not routinely conducted before administering vaccinations. Then when an individual with this underlying disorder receives multiple vaccination, injury occurs. Additionally, such a disorder can be very difficult to detect, and markers of this disease can be easily overlooked. Hence the need for better sceening techniques that may detect such a disorder and avoid vaccination injury.

                  If so, how can we conclude that such injuries are in fact rare?

                  "because serious side effects are rarely reported among all-comers. They are rare, period. Thats a fact"

                  You do know that there are thousands of reports of such injuries. Thousands awaiting compensation. Define rare. Would it matter how rarely it occurred if it happened to your child? Would it matter if it did happen, those responsible simply denied it was their vaccination and, by law, were not liable for the harm they caused?

                  Aren't we simply applying the poke and hope method of safely vaccinating our children?

                  "No. Safety of vaccination is well established"

                  Time to get serious about safety. Nobody wants to eliminate vaccinations. Parents want to feel that everything is done to prevent injuries. But everything is not done.

                  • 1 vote
                  #28.11 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:15 AM EDT

                  please learn how to quote and post properly.

                    #28.12 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 4:56 PM EDT

                    Everything in quotations is your nonsense. Spend some time reading up on mitochondrial abnormalities and vaccination injury. You''ll be in a better position to comment on this issue.

                      #28.13 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:18 PM EDT

                      You''ll be in a better position to comment on this issue.

                      youll be in a better position to comment once you learn how to use a computer

                        #28.14 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 11:09 PM EDT

                        hahaha...from YOUR OWN LINK:

                        http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/statement-autism-vaccines-mitochondrial-disease

                        Vaccinations are critical in protecting the health of our children. All children, even those with suspected or known mitochondrial diseases, should receive the recommended vaccinations. The risks of these communicable illnesses outweigh the risk of vaccine-related reactions. Any causal relationship of thimerisol to incidence of autism has been disproven by observing the incidence of autism before and after eliminating this form of mercury from the vaccines. MitoAction encourages parents to talk to their pediatrician about these concerns.

                          #28.15 - Sat Aug 4, 2012 8:40 AM EDT
                          Reply

                          Bioethicists are made up pharma titles. It's an empty title. If he understood ethics at all he would not be telling parents they don't have rights and knowingly subject some children to harm by vaccination.

                          • 1 vote
                          #29 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:25 PM EDT

                          Robert-

                          A bioethicist must weight the damage done by vaccination with the damage by the vaccine-preventable disease. For instance, for the MMR vaccine, the risks include fever, rash, and seizure. These are fairly common, due to the nature of vaccination. Just like a flu shot. However, the harm you speak of is so rare that there is doubt that it is even connected to the shot. Measles' complications include a 1 in 1000 chance of encephalitis, 1 in 20 chance of pneumonia, and 1 in 1000 chance of death. Mumps' complications include 27% risk of spontaneous abortion in the 1st trimester and coinfections in about 30% of young men. Rubella's complications include a myriad of birth defects and fetus harm. Which do you want to subject your children to?

                          • 1 vote
                          #29.1 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:35 PM EDT

                          You don't really know how "rare" it is because we don't have any scientific way to study vaccination safety. Pro mass vaccination zealots (like the author) make fun of the vaccine surveilance system for good reason. Vaccine safety just isn't taken seriously by corporate funded medicine.

                          Measles' complications include a 1 in 1000 chance of encephalitis, 1 in 20 chance of pneumonia, and 1 in 1000 chance of death. Mumps' complications include 27% risk of spontaneous abortion in the 1st trimester and coinfections in about 30% of young men

                          These statistics were much lower in the period before mass vaccination. (I can provide CDC reference if anyone has doubt to the facts). Why is measles more dangerous now that we have vaccinations. Can you answer that? Did you even know of this statistical conundrum?

                          • 1 vote
                          #29.2 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:41 PM EDT

                          A bioethicist must weight the damage done by vaccination with the damage by the vaccine-preventable disease.

                          Bioethecist don't know crap. It's a made up title. They are pharma shills.

                          • 1 vote
                          #29.3 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:43 PM EDT

                          And what are you "Robert"? You're certainly no medical professional, are you?! Is all your 'so-called' knowledge on this subject from bias downloaded articles on the computer? Do you have any real world experience or are you one of those loopy 'my child was injured by being vaccinated' parent, who are trying to make a buck off the backs of the medical community?

                          • 2 votes
                          #29.4 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:12 PM EDT

                          You don't really know how "rare" it is because we don't have any scientific way to study vaccination safety

                          Ive posted many for you in the past. You reject them because they have no placebo arm.

                          How could that affect the results? Specifically, how? Not in generalities, not dodging the question. Answer it.

                          • 2 votes
                          #29.5 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:30 PM EDT

                          Robert-

                          I would like that data.

                          However, it seems to me that most of these complications are probably due to lack of recognition of the disease by the parent.

                            #29.6 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:47 PM EDT

                            Do you have any real world experience or are you one of those loopy 'my child was injured by being vaccinated' parent, who are trying to make a buck off the backs of the medical community?

                            Are you seriously accusing the parents of vaccine damaged children of greedy money grubbers. Making money off the backs of the medical community? Are you kidding me? Are you seriously kidding me. You are majorly brain washed.

                            Did you know that the backs of the medical community kill more people in this country than all of infectious diseases put together(in U.s)? Did you know that pharma has liability protection from vaccines?

                            And you have the gall to put blame on vaccine injured parents. There are a lot of good nurses and medical professionals out there. But with that type of attitude and disdain for people you are supposed to care for I doubt you are one of them. The holier than thou I can do no wrong medicine is infalliable attitude is bad for medicine. I guess there is no bad medicine or vaccines only bad patients who responded negatively.

                              #29.7 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:19 PM EDT

                              Are you seriously accusing the parents of vaccine damaged children of greedy money grubbers.

                              Your logical fallacy here is "circular logic" or "begging the question". You are trying to prove your conclusion (vaccines injure) by using it as an argument to forward said conclusion.

                              Did you know that the backs of the medical community kill more people in this country than all of infectious diseases put together

                              Complete and utter lie

                                #29.8 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:23 PM EDT

                                http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=384554

                                Error in Medicine

                                http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=192842

                                declaration that between 44,000 and 98,000 people die in US hospitals annually as a result of medical errors.

                                http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=deaths-from-avoidable-medical-error-2009-08-10

                                Deaths from avoidable medical error more than double in past decade, investigation shows

                                Table Of Iatrogenic Deaths In The United States

                                  #29.9 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:33 PM EDT

                                  Medical Error Deaths Spike when Residents Start
                                  Preventable Medical Errors – The Sixth Biggest Killer in America
                                  Bad Wire in Heart Device Led to 22 Deaths, Study Says

                                  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/business/bad-wire-in-st-jude-heart-device-led-to-22-deaths-study-says.html

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories

                                  The mistake resulted in the production of 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that contained live polio virus. Of the children who received the vaccine, 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed paralytic poliomyelitis and of these 5 children died as a result of polio infection.[6] The exposures led to an epidemic of polio in the families and communities of the affected children, resulting in a further 113 people paralyzed and 5 deaths.[7]

                                    #29.10 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:40 PM EDT

                                    "Your logical fallacy here is "circular logic" or "begging the question". You are trying to prove your conclusion (vaccines injure) by using it as an argument to forward said conclusion."

                                    His conclusion is correct Eric. Vaccinations do in fact seriously injure some individuals. He was addressing the fact that victims of vaccination injury are not greedy money grabbers. I suspect you feel as they are. Afterall, you love to downplay these issues as negligible and rare events.

                                    Do you also believe that parents whom have had their child injured by vaccinations should not be allowed to receive compensation for a lifetime of pain and suffering?

                                      #29.11 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 12:45 PM EDT

                                      Angela, Do you administer vaccinations to infants and children?

                                      Do you honestly believe that parents of vaccination injured children are loopy?

                                      Trying to make a buck?

                                      Do us all a favor and get out of the medical profession. You talk about life experience. Have you ever spent time with a family that has had their child's life, as well as theirs, ruined by vaccination injury?

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #29.12 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 2:22 PM EDT

                                      His conclusion is correct Eric.

                                      disagreed. I see you cannot counter my points. Just saying "his conclusion is correct" doesn't make it so

                                      accinations do in fact seriously injure some individuals.

                                      extraordinarly rarely

                                      He was addressing the fact that victims of vaccination injury are not greedy money grabbers

                                      and I was addressing that point

                                      I suspect...

                                      I couldn't care less about your suspicions, wonderings, or guesstimates. Facts matter, not opinion. especially not uneducated opinion

                                      Do you also believe that parents whom have had their child injured by vaccinations should not be allowed to receive compensation for a lifetime of pain and suffering?

                                      Irrelevant.

                                        #29.13 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 6:01 PM EDT

                                        declaration that between 44,000 and 98,000 people die in US hospitals annually as a result of medical errors.

                                        what was the control group in that study? do you only ask when its convenient for you?

                                          #29.14 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 6:02 PM EDT

                                          It wasn't an RCT. The numbers were extrapolated based on 2 studies.

                                          But if you don't like that then you should use flu statistics or "how many lives vaccines save" statistics.

                                            #29.15 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 6:17 PM EDT

                                            It wasn't an RCT. The numbers were extrapolated based on 2 studies.

                                            Doesn't matter. You need a control arm for this kind of study

                                            But if you don't like that then you should use flu statistics or "how many lives vaccines save" statistics.

                                            theres a difference I can explain to you if you like

                                              #29.16 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 7:30 PM EDT

                                              actually, just read this. It contains the same explanation I would give you

                                              http://uwf.edu/sahls/medicalinformatics/docfiles/debates%20usa%20death%20rates.pdf

                                                #29.17 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 7:55 PM EDT

                                                "Your logical fallacy here is "circular logic" or "begging the question". You are trying to prove your conclusion (vaccines injure) by using it as an argument to forward said conclusion."

                                                It's a fact that vaccinations cause injury. Not speculation. Not a logical fallacy. Fact.

                                                You could argue that injury occurs so infrequently that safety is of little concen, but you can't argue that it will not occur.

                                                "I couldn't care less about your suspicions, wonderings, or guesstimates. Facts matter, not opinion. especially not uneducated opinion"

                                                Does the fact that vaccinations cause injuries matter? How is this an uneducated opinion on my behalf?

                                                I'm uneducated? You're the one whom doesn't understand how an underlying perturbation in cellular redox may result in vaccination injury and neurological decline. Not your area of expertise. Again, maybe you should learn a bit more about the topic before defending safety of vaccinations.

                                                  #29.18 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:37 AM EDT

                                                  It's a fact that vaccinations cause injury. Not speculation. Not a logical fallacy. Fact.

                                                  Prove it. Show me rates, a proven causal mechanism and an analysis that examines this causal mechanism.

                                                  You could argue that injury occurs so infrequently that safety is of little concen, but you can't argue that it will not occur.

                                                  see above

                                                  Does the fact that vaccinations cause injuries matter? How is this an uneducated opinion on my behalf?

                                                  see above

                                                  I'm uneducated? You're the one whom doesn't understand how an underlying perturbation in cellular redox may result in vaccination injury and neurological decline. Not your area of expertise. Again, maybe you should learn a bit more about the topic before defending safety of vaccinations.

                                                  see above. You need to show evidence of something before you draw a conclusion. After said evidence is shown, and a reasonable conclusion can be inferred, then feel free to throw it in my face

                                                  Until then, its a bit premature

                                                    #29.19 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 5:00 PM EDT

                                                    Prove it. Show me rates, a proven causal mechanism and an analysis that examines this causal mechanism.

                                                    Are you denying vaccine injury exists again or are you just trying to get into an epistemological pissing match?

                                                    • 1 vote
                                                    #29.20 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 7:11 PM EDT

                                                    There is compesation for vaccination injury along with a long list of specific injuries. If injuries did not occur, there wouldn't be such a list or compensation. Are you really that ignorant on this issue or just lying about the facts?

                                                      #29.21 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:25 PM EDT

                                                      There is compesation for vaccination injury along with a long list of specific injuries. If injuries did not occur, there wouldn't be such a list or compensation.

                                                      You need to show evidence.

                                                      Are you really that ignorant on this issue or just lying about the facts?

                                                      haha, what facts? You haven't shown any yet, despite my repeated requests for you to do so

                                                        #29.22 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 11:11 PM EDT

                                                        I've already given you the link Dr. Eric. again I will tell you if you deny vaccine/medical side effects then you are a DANGEROUS medical doctor. If your employers saw how you behaved on here you would be fired!

                                                          #29.23 - Fri Aug 3, 2012 1:01 PM EDT

                                                          I've already given you the link Dr. Eric.

                                                          all i saw was some link to some bogus blog. Thats not evidence, and I shouldn't have to tell you that

                                                          will tell you if you deny vaccine/medical side effects then you are a DANGEROUS medical doctor.

                                                          and I will tell YOU again that you need to go to med school before you start giving advice on how to practice medicine. Until then, STFU!

                                                          If your employers saw how you behaved on here you would be fired!

                                                          and if your mom saw you on here she would have wished you were aborted

                                                            #29.24 - Fri Aug 3, 2012 6:05 PM EDT

                                                            hahaha...from YOUR OWN LINK:

                                                            http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/statement-autism-vaccines-mitochondrial-disease

                                                            Vaccinations are critical in protecting the health of our children. All children, even those with suspected or known mitochondrial diseases, should receive the recommended vaccinations. The risks of these communicable illnesses outweigh the risk of vaccine-related reactions. Any causal relationship of thimerisol to incidence of autism has been disproven by observing the incidence of autism before and after eliminating this form of mercury from the vaccines. MitoAction encourages parents to talk to their pediatrician about these concerns.

                                                              #29.25 - Sat Aug 4, 2012 8:40 AM EDT

                                                              all i saw was some link to some bogus blog. Thats not evidence, and I shouldn't have to tell you that

                                                              It's a government website Dr.Penguin. You didn't even bother to look.

                                                              and if your mom saw you on here she would have wished you were aborted

                                                              Yet another reason to say you are not who you say you are. You are an unprofessional jerk, not a medical doctor. Just like penguin is not a real scientist. The style is eerily similar. Must be a coincidence;)

                                                                #29.26 - Mon Aug 6, 2012 12:16 PM EDT

                                                                It's a government website Dr.Penguin. You didn't even bother to look.

                                                                it was not and I looked

                                                                Yet another reason to say you are not who you say you are. You are an unprofessional jerk, not a medical doctor. Just like penguin is not a real scientist. The style is eerily similar. Must be a coincidence;)

                                                                telling me Im a disgrace and should be fired is really professional, right?

                                                                your hypocrisy knows no bounds

                                                                  #29.27 - Mon Aug 6, 2012 5:14 PM EDT
                                                                  Reply

                                                                  In recent years my mother who works in the ER has seen increased numbers of patients who haven't been immunized against basic diseases.

                                                                  It's costly and it wastes time. When someone comes in with a spotty immunization record, you have to test them for EVERYTHING, measles, the hepatitis alphabet- all costs the the hospital is almost guaranteed to have to absorb, because people who don't get immunized rarely have health insurance. Those diseases can cause more long term health care costs as well as causing more health problems than a immunized person would deal with.

                                                                  Despite that, I am fine if stupid parents want to opt out of immunizations. However, if your child gets very sick or dies from lack of immunizations, you get charged with child endangerment, neglect, or wrongful death.

                                                                  If a un-immunized adult or child passes on the disease to kids who are too young for immunizations or have weak immune systems, you get charged with a crime.

                                                                  If a school says your kid needs immunizations and you don't want to do that- homeschool them.

                                                                  If a adult or child suffers from a easily preventable disease because they didn't want a booster or get immunized at all- you pay for your own health care costs.

                                                                  You see, life is action and consequences. NOT immunizing your kids have consequences to them and to the general public. You are free to eat up the hysteria, however prepare to deal with reality is something bad happens.

                                                                  Oh and to all of those who suffered a bad reaction to a immunization:

                                                                  When I was a baby I had a server allergic reaction to penicillin antibiotics. Strangely enough, my mother didn't go crazy and say I could never be given ANY KIND of antibiotic ever again. I am sure there is PLENTY of "credible material" out there on the DANGERS and CONSPIRACIES of antibiotics.

                                                                  Never had a problem with my allergy since. I did have a slight reaction to a flu shot one year, but I only felt achey for a day.

                                                                  I am being far more proactive on staying on top of my booster shots BECAUSE of the growing number of un-immunized people. Herd immunity only works when someone can't get or or won't pass on a communicable disease. Pertussis has hit my country harder than in most areas of the US that are getting it.

                                                                  • 4 votes
                                                                  Reply#30 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:22 PM EDT

                                                                  t's costly and it wastes time. When someone comes in with a spotty immunization record, you have to test them for EVERYTHING, measles, the hepatitis alphabet- all costs the the hospital is almost guaranteed to have to absorb, because people who don't get immunized rarely have health insurance

                                                                  This is a source of diagnostic bias. If vaccinated patient comes in then doctors miss the disease diagnosis because they don't think it could be the case. This is what has happened with many cases of whooping cough in the vaccinated. It's getting diagnosed a bronchitis or some other type of dx

                                                                  Despite that, I am fine if stupid parents want to opt out of immunizations. However, if your child gets very sick or dies from lack of immunizations, you get charged with child endangerment, neglect, or wrongful death.

                                                                  That's cool. And just to be fair then pharma companies, the doctor, the nurse, school, etc.,. gets sued everytime a vaccinated person gets a disease they was "vaccine preventable". Same with vaccine caused disability.

                                                                    #30.1 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:24 PM EDT

                                                                    This is a source of diagnostic bias

                                                                    No, its good medicine. If someone eats spoiled meat, then comes in with a tummy ache, ya think maybe they got food poisoning?

                                                                    I don't think you have to go to med school for that one

                                                                    gets sued everytime a vaccinated person gets a disease they was "vaccine preventable".

                                                                    nah, most educated people know nothing is 100%

                                                                    Same with vaccine caused disability.

                                                                    Gotta prove it first. Thats the problem with evidence, and logic, and rules. It would be nice if all that wasn't necessary

                                                                      #30.2 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:28 PM EDT

                                                                      "nah, most educated people know nothing is 100%"

                                                                      I am sorry that your child had such a severe reaction to the vaccination and has suffered severe brain damage. But hey, these things happen. Nothing is 100%. Just because I had administered the vaccination without really knowing if it would cause your child harm, doesn't mean I should be accountable for its harm. Go take a number with the thousands of others awaiting some kind of compensation. Be sure to make your co-pay at the front desk.

                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                      #30.3 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 12:54 PM EDT

                                                                      hahaha...from YOUR OWN LINK:

                                                                      http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/statement-autism-vaccines-mitochondrial-disease

                                                                      Vaccinations are critical in protecting the health of our children. All children, even those with suspected or known mitochondrial diseases, should receive the recommended vaccinations. The risks of these communicable illnesses outweigh the risk of vaccine-related reactions. Any causal relationship of thimerisol to incidence of autism has been disproven by observing the incidence of autism before and after eliminating this form of mercury from the vaccines. MitoAction encourages parents to talk to their pediatrician about these concerns.

                                                                        #30.4 - Sat Aug 4, 2012 8:40 AM EDT
                                                                        Reply

                                                                        These people who do NOT Vaccinate their children are FOOLS! Their kids should be Banned from Public School. And I say that knowing I HAVE a autoimmune disease that was caused by a reaction to a Vaccination. And I would Still vaccinate my child. What is better? Death and spreading disease or the 0.1% chance of an autoimmune reaction? I'll take the slight risk and vaccinate!

                                                                        • 1 vote
                                                                        Reply#31 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:14 PM EDT

                                                                        And I say that knowing I HAVE a autoimmune disease that was caused by a reaction to a Vaccination.

                                                                        Who's the fool?

                                                                        Oh, I guess you wouldn't want to wish chickenpox on your worst enemy would you. If you didn't vaccinate in the early 1960's (before mass vaccination) your chance of not dying from measles was 99.99+%. You don't like those chances.

                                                                        YOu are most likely immunocompromised BECAUSE of the drugs you take for autoimmune dx. It's a medical induced immunocomprise. Isn't that ironic?

                                                                          #31.1 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:28 PM EDT

                                                                          our chance of not dying from measles was 99.99+%

                                                                          Wrong. Fatality rate is 0.3 up to 30% if immunocompromised

                                                                          What about the rates of other complications besides death, like pneumonia, otitis media, acute encephalitis (rarely SSPE -- subacute sclerosing panencephalitis), and corneal ulceration (leading to corneal scarring)?

                                                                          Ever think of those? Probably not.

                                                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles#Complications

                                                                            #31.2 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:31 PM EDT
                                                                            Reply

                                                                            - - - -

                                                                              Reply#32 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:25 PM EDT

                                                                              My youngest child never completed his DPT shots. After two shots he became extremely ill. Took him to a doc who said the vaccine -- an "attenuated strain" -- was giving him whooping cough. Said as sensitive to the vaccine as he was, he might die if he got the next shot in the series. So he never got them and is 25, healty as a horse and serving in the Navy.

                                                                              Also, my wife's brother died in her arms when he was 15 from kidney failure. What apparently caused it? The docs who reviewed the records voted for the kidney failure being caused by a mandatory vaccine he received some years earlier. Seems the kidney failure started within weeks of receiving the vaccine. Tell my wife and her mother that he died as a necessary cost to the effort to protect other children. For that matter, call him back from the dead and explain to him that to make an omlette you have to break a few eggs. So, kiddo, sorry about that!

                                                                              For myself, I got four of my children the majority of their vaccines. But I monitored closely, skipped those I believed too dangerous and prayed I was right. In my case, it worked. But I tell people frequently not to trust health professionals too much. After all, they are just doing a "job", but your child is the one who will suffer the consequences if they are sloppy and/or lie. Remember, medical professionals get to bury most of their mistakes without too many questions.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #33 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:57 PM EDT

                                                                              Grandpa,

                                                                              Your post is the perfect example of 'being part of the problem and none of the solution'...

                                                                              You are a perfect example of the dumbing down of America, as well.

                                                                              • 2 votes
                                                                              #33.1 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:19 PM EDT

                                                                              A calloused and lobotomized medical employee is not helping the problem either. Do you realize that your entire education was slanted toward pharmaceutical and device propaganda? Of course not. Then it wouldn't be good propaganda.

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #33.2 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:31 PM EDT

                                                                              unlike your blogs you cite, which are not biased in the least.

                                                                                #33.3 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:32 PM EDT

                                                                                Or Eric's denial and lack of care for the rare and negligible injuries caused by vaccinations.

                                                                                  #33.4 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 2:32 PM EDT

                                                                                  unlike your blogs you cite, which are not biased in the least.

                                                                                  Everyone is biased, Eric. Even medical doctors and medical professors. We're all subjective beings.

                                                                                    #33.5 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 3:58 PM EDT

                                                                                    veryone is biased, Eric. Even medical doctors and medical professors. We're all subjective beings.

                                                                                    agreed, which is when asked, I provide data. You, on the other hand, copy and paste blogs like it was the word of the lord...

                                                                                      #33.6 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 5:55 PM EDT

                                                                                      Or Eric's denial

                                                                                      please quote my denial

                                                                                      and lack of care

                                                                                      now I think your capable of better behavior than that

                                                                                      for the rare and negligible injuries caused by vaccinations.

                                                                                      we agree they are rare and negligible

                                                                                        #33.7 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 5:56 PM EDT

                                                                                        agreed, which is when asked, I provide data.

                                                                                        You provide literature not data. And if you do provide data there is always facts that I can provide to put that "data" into perspective.

                                                                                        You, like, me only show data that supports your opinion. You're like the pharmaceutical advertisement in a magazine. I'm the other page with all of the fine print.

                                                                                          #33.8 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 6:21 PM EDT

                                                                                          You provide literature not data.

                                                                                          I have provided multiple studies, which are data. You choosing not to read them is not an excuse

                                                                                          And if you do provide data there is always facts that I can provide to put that "data" into perspective.

                                                                                          you haven't yet

                                                                                          You, like, me only show data that supports your opinion

                                                                                          Backwards. My opinion follows the data, that's why they match. you have yet to show any data at all

                                                                                          You're like the pharmaceutical advertisement in a magazine. I'm the other page with all of the fine print.

                                                                                          youre like an ad for a laxative. Guaranteed to produce sh!t

                                                                                            #33.9 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 7:32 PM EDT

                                                                                            "we agree they are rare and negligible"

                                                                                            I believe these words would not be used by a parent when describing their child's vaccination injury. They would probably use the term devastating.

                                                                                            I guess when you measure such harm using statistics, it is easy to disregard real pain and suffering. I would bet my last dollar that if you have experienced a serious vaccination injury with your child, you would choose your words more carefully. Thank your lucky stars that it has not happened in your family, and show a little respect for families that deal with the aftermath.

                                                                                            • 1 vote
                                                                                            #33.10 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:59 AM EDT

                                                                                            I believe these words would not be used by a parent when describing their child's vaccination injury. They would probably use the term devastating.

                                                                                            so would the parents of a child who died as a result of infection after a stem cell transplant for treatment of leukemia.

                                                                                            Does that mean the stem cell transplant was wrong?

                                                                                            I guess when you measure such harm using statistics, it is easy to disregard real pain and suffering.

                                                                                            Not true

                                                                                            I would bet my last dollar that if you have experienced a serious vaccination injury with your child, you would choose your words more carefully.

                                                                                            They were your words, not mine, biffy...

                                                                                            Thank your lucky stars that it has not happened in your family, and show a little respect for families that deal with the aftermath.

                                                                                            Thanks, but Im not going to take lessons in compassion from someone who has never taken care of patients, nor looked into a dying patients eyes

                                                                                              #33.11 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 5:09 PM EDT

                                                                                              Denying that vaccination injuries do occur or stating that they are negligible is disrespectful towards those whom have suffered from it. Understand?

                                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                                              #33.12 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 10:31 PM EDT

                                                                                              enying that vaccination injuries do occur or stating that they are negligible is disrespectful towards those whom have suffered from it. Understand?

                                                                                              Thanks, but Im not going to take lessons in compassion from someone who has never taken care of patients, nor looked into a dying patients eyes

                                                                                                #33.13 - Thu Aug 2, 2012 11:12 PM EDT

                                                                                                Thanks, but Im not going to take lessons in compassion from someone who has never taken care of patients, nor looked into a dying patients eyes

                                                                                                You should be saving patients not killing them.

                                                                                                How many patients die on statin drugs that you prescribe?

                                                                                                  #33.14 - Fri Aug 3, 2012 1:03 PM EDT

                                                                                                  You should be saving patients not killing them.

                                                                                                  How many patients die on statin drugs that you prescribe?

                                                                                                  Thanks, but Im not going to take lessons in compassion from someone who has never taken care of patients, nor looked into a dying patients eyes

                                                                                                    #33.15 - Fri Aug 3, 2012 6:06 PM EDT

                                                                                                    hahaha...from YOUR OWN LINK:

                                                                                                    http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/statement-autism-vaccines-mitochondrial-disease

                                                                                                    Vaccinations are critical in protecting the health of our children. All children, even those with suspected or known mitochondrial diseases, should receive the recommended vaccinations. The risks of these communicable illnesses outweigh the risk of vaccine-related reactions. Any causal relationship of thimerisol to incidence of autism has been disproven by observing the incidence of autism before and after eliminating this form of mercury from the vaccines. MitoAction encourages parents to talk to their pediatrician about these concerns.

                                                                                                      #33.16 - Sat Aug 4, 2012 8:41 AM EDT
                                                                                                      Reply

                                                                                                      A CDC staff member (Schuchat) and a woman from the Washington state dept of health (Mary Selecky) both had quotes in an article published in Medpage Today stating that the current pertussis outbreak cannot be blamed on non vaccinating parents. They were originally thinking that was the cause and seem to be walking that back quite a bit.

                                                                                                      • 2 votes
                                                                                                      Reply#34 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:44 PM EDT

                                                                                                      A true bio 'ethicist' would look at both sides of the coin and ask are we being led by Big Pharma to believe children need to be vaccinated against every possible illness all the time, despite evidence to suggest the vaccines being churned out aren't really as safe as they say?

                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                      Reply#35 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:45 PM EDT

                                                                                                      because ..... contracting diphtheria is safer? ... i don't follow that reasoning.

                                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                                      #35.1 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:56 PM EDT

                                                                                                      diptheria is a disease of poverty. know your statistics and risk factors. Risk is not homogenous.

                                                                                                      BTW your post seems to be a non sequitur

                                                                                                        #35.2 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:32 PM EDT

                                                                                                        JCA, your big Pharma theory has large holes in it, you dont know that manufactures of vaccines make almost nothing of most vaccine drugs. Companies only make them as a public service not as a big profit maker. Its the doctors who push vaccinations because they know what happens when you dont take them.

                                                                                                          #35.3 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 12:35 AM EDT
                                                                                                          Reply

                                                                                                          I will never understand why people are willing to leave their children completely vulnerable to diseases, when they can be shielded from them. Of course technology is not 100% effective or safe but it is much safer than not using it. Having the means to protect your child from disease but then actually choosing to not take advantage of it= you are being willfully ignorant. Of course kids with health problems that would increase the chances of a bad reaction to a vaccine should not get the vaccine, but healthy kids should always get vaccinated. The reliability of vaccines is right up there with guns. Guns are one of the most reliable machines ever made by humans, just as vaccines are one of the most reliable medicines ever made by humans.

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          Reply#36 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:46 PM EDT

                                                                                                          I am so grateful for vaccines. My dad is a polio survivor and is now suffering from post-polio syndrome. I would much rather face the minuscule risk of a bad reaction to the polio vaccine than the very high risk of death or disability from contracting polio! People just don't understand what life was like before vaccines. It wasn't uncommon for multiple children in a family to die from a single outbreak of diptheria or pertussis or polio.. These diseases are horrible if you get them, and they can most certainly kill you. Vaccines on the other hand may have some very small risks, completely acceptable when compared to the huge risk of death from the diseases they prevent! Risk management...

                                                                                                          • 1 vote
                                                                                                          Reply#37 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:54 PM EDT

                                                                                                          I had friends who died with polio. This was before Salk. I had to go through mumps, measels and the rest of the horrid diseases. Saw a man that got mumps and his testicles were the size of softballs. Stop this stupid nonsense about how dangerous vaccines are. It is BS and has no scientific basis. None. It is being promoted by a bunch of kooks who have no science background. Of all the wonders modern medicine has given us and also the cheapest and most effective none match vaccines. I could care less about your religious or philosophical BS or because a vaccine was made from some part of animal. So were your shoes stupid.

                                                                                                            Reply#38 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:44 PM EDT

                                                                                                            http://naturalbirthright.blogspot.com/2010/11/hepatitis-b.html

                                                                                                            This was Ian within HOURS of receiving the Hep B vaccine

                                                                                                              #38.1 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:50 PM EDT
                                                                                                              Reply

                                                                                                              Why are parents not vaccinating their kids? It is quite simple. The incompetent news media publicizes junk science scare stories with super hype. It is called truth terrorism.

                                                                                                                Reply#39 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:06 PM EDT

                                                                                                                Whooping cough for bleeps sake.. nice work Jenny McCarthy and Don Imus. Idiot self-important ignorant fools.

                                                                                                                  Reply#40 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:53 PM EDT

                                                                                                                  Just how does one become a bio-whatever and presume to tell people what to do. My question - is the human race better off, or stronger, in the long run, with or without vaccines? It would seem that, long term, the human race becomes weaker through the use of vaccines. More and more of nature's checks on human population are being removed and the earth is terribly over populated as it is. Funny how the human race survived millions of years when no vaccines were available. The Black Death was terrible but it led to the Renaissance.

                                                                                                                    Reply#41 - Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:55 PM EDT

                                                                                                                    The way we Americans react against vaccinations has to be the result of poor education, our distrust of govt and religious fundamentalism somehow is a part of the distrust of vaccinations. When something is given away we dont want it, remember a few years ago there was a shortage of flu vaccine and it seemed everyone wanted it then. People are strange that way.

                                                                                                                      Reply#42 - Wed Aug 1, 2012 12:28 AM EDT
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