True, except when many more people stop getting vaccines and all diseases start coming back like wild fire, you'll be worried about a lot more than one or two children that may or may not have had a reaction to one of the vaccines.

baby has a seizure 20 mins after getting a vaccine- must be coincidence.

show me the rates of seizures from vaccines in babies. Also, show me evidence of short or long term consequences of said seizures

child contracts disease just vaccinated against- again a coincidence

no, it means vaccines aren't perfect.

hild dies within 7 days of getting a vaccine from a sudden unidentifiable reason- must be magic because no one has ever been harmed by a vaccine

show me death rates of children within a week of getting a vaccine

Those death rates are probably lower than the death rates of babies with whooping cough. It's scary how many people go online to look up "proof" and all they can find are sites with the propaganda they want to hear - all natural, granola type sites with no real evidence of anything. I once knew a chiropractor/herbalist who only ate organic vegan food, used herbs instead of medicine and did back adjustments to "cure" ailments. He believed that vaccines were unnatural and thought that getting the disease itself was a better way of getting immunity. He was very anti-doctor, anti-pharm companies etc. A lot of good that did him. He died of liver cancer because he refused to see a real doctor until it was too late. yeah, maybe i'm not as "healthy" as he was - but he's dead and I'm alive... so how did all of that help him? Some people who claim to be open-minded are just the opposite. They are so quick to believe what they read online without seeing who is actually writing it, and where they get their evidence from. I have yet to see real evidence. What I do see now? I know people are starting to reject traditional medicine and vaccines and now the rates of whooping cough and other diseases are going up. Propaganda? Not really. In my child's school I get letters home almost every month to warn parents there is another child with one of these almost previously extinct diseases. It's a good thing I'm not planning on any more kids...I'd be worried sick that my older children could be carrying one of these diseases home with them and possibly kill their younger sibling. fyi....you can be a carrier and not get sick - especially when you've had the vaccine. The more parents stop vaccinating their kids, the more letters I'll be getting home. That's proof that vaccines work.

Agravated...

If your MD specifically told you that vaccines are 100% safe sue him!

No health professional will ever state that something is 100% safe since there is always the idiosyncratic reaction, this is, the unforeseen individual reaction. In the medical profession we know and explain the risks of vaccines but we also explain the much more serious risk of not vaccinating.

We know and respect your decision of not vaccinating your kids if you opt to do so, but what we will never accept is that because of ill informed decisions you can put the rest of the kids at risk.

Sorry, @RamFla, you're nicer than I am.

Someone's ignorant decision to refuse to get their children vaccinated, based on the groundless fears that are being spread around, rather than the peer-reviewed, multiply verified results that vaccinations are orders of magnitude safer for the child than the refusal, constitutes child abuse by the parent and puts my children at risk.

Just from my own personal experience I know for a fact that my daughter had a reaction to her vaccines at her 1 year old visit. However her pediatrician at the time called me a hysterical mother instead of listening to my concerns or even considering that the vaccines were the issue. They never diagnosed her with a virus, or infection instead it is listed on her chart as unknown. This prompted me to investigate and find out for myself how ineffective many vaccines are but they are still pushed to the American people. Are they safer than the disease? I'm not so sure. Many people die from vaccines or have life changing disabilities that are attributed to the contaminants in the vaccines. Manufacturers make a ton of money off of vaccines, many of which are unnecessary. Look at the Gardasil vaccine and all of the issues from that, but they are still pushing that and even to our young boys now. I have my children vaccinated with the basics but if I have my choice would not. If you think I abuse my children because I want to keep them healthy versus exposing them to all of the harmful ingredients in vaccines then that is perfect. But if you vaccinate your child then an nonvaccinated child should not pose any risk at all for your child. Unless you vaccinated with a useless, ineffective vaccine and then your child has no immune system to fight off basic infection...yes then you would have an issue.

KWMom - "But if you vaccinate your child then an nonvaccinated child should not pose any risk at all for your child." That statement makes the assumption that every child and also every adult is capable of handling the vaccines. The breakdown of the protection afforded to society from mass vaccinations will save more lives and more unnecessary pain vs the tiny percentage of adverse reactions and deaths from vaccinations. It's very, very, very basic math.

Again...Is it true that a uber tiny percentage of children will have adverse side effects or die from vaccinations...yes. Is it also true that irrationally hysterical parents not getting their children vaccinated puts way more people unnecessarily at risk for diseases that do far more damage than the occasional adverse reaction including a tiny percentage that might die....YES!

I would prefer 10 guilty people to go free rather than 1 innocent person put into jail.

I would prefer 10 kids die from a disease rather than 1 healthy kid die to prevent the disease.

While the math may be simple, the issue is way more complex. Don't get lost in the numbers when lives are at stake. That very small percentage you talk about has a growing voice and should not be ignored.

courser...That very small percentage you mention wantonly puts an entire society at risk and says things like 10 should die to save 1. Enough said

Courser - you are showing an unfathomable amount of selfish ignorance in saying that you would find it acceptable for 10 children to die instead of 1.

Remember how many children and immunity challenged adults are at risk from these children? Do I want your un-vaccinated child visiting my mother in a nursing home? Hell no.

Do I want to seek out schools that only accept vaccinated children to protect them from you idiots> Hell, yes.

The numbers speak for themselves vaccines are incredibly safe, and yes unfortunately there are so adverse reactions. It is interesting we have people refusing to vaccinate telling us the risk is not worth it. However if they have an infection I bet they would demand antibiotics, which have a 1000X fold record of adverse reactions.

Easy answer: No vaccines = no public schools. Non-vaccinators can home school their children, or perhaps find a private school that will accept unvaccinated children. Also, keep your children away from other children, the elderly and chronically ill in public places. This will keep you from inflicting life-threatening yet easily preventable diseases on the unsuspecting. Perhaps it will keep your children protected from your attempt to blame any definciency in your child on an outside source.

Vaccines are an amazing gift of medical technology to our society. My generation was one of the first ever to grow up without fear of widespread death among children from these childhood diseases that have plagued societies from the beginning of time. It's absolutely revolutionary, the benefits we have enjoyed as a society due to vaccinations.

I don't personally know anyone who has lost a child to one of these diseases. But when my grandparents were growing up everyone had friends or acquaintences who had lost children to these diseases. This wonderful change is because of vaccines.

I once was afraid of vaccines myself. When our children were very young we fell prey to the vaccine misinformation and refused vaccination for a time. But I researched the arguments and discovered for myself, that this was a very foolish decision.

I personally now consider it my duty as an American and also the duty of my children at whatever age, to be vaccinated. It is similar to the duty we have to defend our nation from human invaders. Even if there is a risk involved it does not outweigh the duty we all have to be a part of the prevention of these epidemics that kill thousands of children at once.

And having said that (ie - even if there is a risk), the fear is misplaced. In spite of some very motivated people trying to establish a link between vaccinations and horrible side effects, no one has been able to find anything except anecdotal evidence such as: "I know it was the vaccine because something horrible happened right after my child was vaccinated."

Unfortunately every horrible thing that happens to people also had innumerable things that happened right before the horrible thing. The sun came up. The wind blew. You ate breakfast. You turned on the radio. One thing happening before another doesn't mean there is a causal relationship. To find causality requires a lot of analysis which you can't do based on one event, or even a hundred anecdotes because you can't evaluate what really happened based on anecdotes.

So the anecdotes aren't really helpful to understanding the truth about this, as tragic as the horrible thing that may have happened is, the anecdotes being connected to vaccines just play into unfounded fear which motivates people to avoid their duty to be vaccinated and leads to more deaths than otherwise would have happened.

if you vaccinate your child then an nonvaccinated child should not pose any risk at all for your child

To all those who believe this, please find out what a reservoir is and why are these even more dangerous. A hint? The Pertussis epidemic we just had (or are still having according to other researchers).

RW

I am as outraged as you are with all this nonsense on vaccination, I try to keep calm and try, sometimes unsuccessfully, to get the basic facts across. I've found that it is useless to try to explain the difference between anecdotal vs. peer reviewed data... Beliefs are far more entrenched in the mind than reason.

They never diagnosed her with a virus, or infection instead it is listed on her chart as unknown. This prompted me to investigate and find out for myself how ineffective many vaccines are but they are still pushed to the American people. Are they safer than the disease? I'm not so sure

If you are not so sure, then you are lying about any investigation you did. If someone claims that vaccines might be as bad as the disease then you can be guaranteed that they are lying.

This so called bioethicist has an agenda and it isn't ethics. He want's to strip parents and citizens rights away.

He apparently is so blinded by his authoritative agenda that he fails to read the science of cause and effect.

What Is Causing the Pertussis “Epidemic”: Unvaccinated Kids or an Ineffective Vaccine?

It does not appear that anti-vaccination sentiment among parents has contributed to either the national rise in cases or the Washington state epidemic.” (3)

Vaccines are an amazing gift of medical technology to our society.

So are nuclear weapons. Use with caution. Technology is a double edged sword. Ones rights should not be stripped away because of political/philosophical ideology.

fAct: the vast majority of individuals do not need vaccines.

Fact: vaccines can kill some and permanently injure.

Robert-1126350 - Can you support what you state as "Fact:"

st,

robert can't. He's a nutty anti-vaccine type whos "evidence" is equally nutty people posting on blogs, such as the source for his "facts" above

Anytime he is confronted with real evidence, from independent scientists, he either disappears or flatly denies it for no good reason

I wouldn't even waste your time...

Here is my experience regarding vaccinations: I have two children who are now 24 and 27 years old. I never had them vaccinated. Throughout their school years, they were healthy, RARELY got sick, even when their mates were dropping all around with flus, colds, bronchitis, MEASLES,CHICKEN POX,shingles,etc. All of these kids were immunized. My kids were exposed to all of these. My son, at the age if 17 or 18, got a scare lecture from an M.D, regarding the dangers of adult measles, ie, if contracted, could cause impotence. He decided to have the measles vaccination. He has become a registered nurse, and at the beginning of his internship, discovered that vaccinations were required. The only way to NOT have the vaccinations was to have blood work done to determine if he had the antibodies to the various diseases, already in his system. Now, this is interesting...He showed natural immunity to all EXCEPT the measles, for which he had already been vaccinated.

I think that a very important component is being overlooked, and that is the overall strength of the immune system. My kids were raised on wholesome, fresh, and, as much as possible, organic foods. Supplements for the immune system were regularly given, as well as natural substances with antibiotic properties.

The use of antibiotics rare, less than four times for both children combined.

Probiotics have been very important in our house, and, I believe, one of the most vital elements to their good health. So if antibiotics were ever necessary, great attention was given to restoring and maintaining proper gut flora.

We all continue to experience very good health, due to our diet/lifestyles.....

What am I doing wrong here?

A correction to my last comment...I said that my son had received the measles shot. He got the MUMPS vaccination, which he had to have again for his internship. He already had antibodies to the measles, since he was exposed to it from one of his classmates, who was fully vaccinated, but came down with it anyway.

Robert-1126350 - Can you support what you state as "Fact:"

Yes, absolutely. What would you like supported?

Yeah and the earth is flat too, you killer. Why do you hate children so much that you want them to die by the thousands?

Do you believe using a false dichotomy is good logic and argument? It's dishones is what it is.

Robert...
Can you support these "facts" please?
fAct: the vast majority of individuals do not need vaccines.

Fact: vaccines can kill some and permanently injure.

certainly.

Even before vaccines were in mass use, most people did not have deleterious sequelae from viruses or bacteria. Example, measles is highly contagious with around 90% of people acquiring it before 18 yo pre vaccination era. Yet 99.999% did not succumb to measles with the vast majority recieving lifelong immunity.

Mortality and therefore severity of disease was rapidly declining before mass vaccination took place. Many before antibiotic era also.

Risk is also not homogenous. Many of these diseases of the past were related to poor living conditions, sanitation, hygiene, nutrition, comorbidities, etc.,

Fact: most people do not need vaccines. Healthy people, in general, do not die from infectious disease.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf

http://www.healthsentinel.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2654:united-states-disease-death-rates&catid=55:united-states-deaths-from-diseases&Itemid=55

Diptheria

Social factors thought to contribute to transmission of respiratory diphtheria include poverty, overcrowding, and poor skin care and hygiene [24]. From 1972 to 1982, three outbreaks of diphtheria occurred in Seattle’s Skid Road area, with 86% of the 1100 total cases having cutaneous diphtheria. The incidence was highest in the winter and spring, involving only indigent persons and primarily urban alcoholic persons with poor hygiene [23]. Similarly, in Sweden since 1984, diphtheria has been mainly diagnosed among men abusing alcohol [5, 37]. A report from the recent (1993–1994) diphtheria epidemic in St. Petersburg, Russia, reported that 29 (69%) of the 42 diphtheria deaths were among persons classified as chronic alcoholics [25].

Fact: vaccines can kill some and permanently injure.

I'm really surprised that you asked for evidence of this. Are you another of those "vaccine are 100% safe" believers?

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statisticsreports.html#awardspaid

Plus many other anecdotes of parent's whose children were injured but not compensated.

Are people really this ignorant?? Of course nothing is 100% safe, and the reason you hear so much about the EXTREMELY UNFORTUNATE CIRCIMSTANCES behind a child that dies from a vaccine, is because there is not enough room here on the internet or in any other media to tell the MILLIONS of stories of the children that get vaccinated and are HEALTHY for their lives.

Seriously people should have to pass a test to become a parent. Aside from figuring out what "it" is used for....

You will never convince a parent who is dead set against vaccines why they are wrong and are actively putting their children in harms way.

It's called doing your own research people. There will always be a small amount of children that the vaccines do not work for. If your child has an auto immune disease or is born with HIV, vaccines are NOT ok for them. Unfortunately there are those cases where the child seems perfectly healthy but has a devastating reaction to vaccines. Is it terrible? Of course it is. Is it the dr's fault? Nope. Is it the pharmaceuticals fault? Nope.

Keep your unvaccinated kids away from my vaccinated kid.

Keep your unvaccinated kids away from my vaccinated kid.

Vaccine expert Paul Offit M.D says your kid can get 10,000 vaccines.

Hi Robert,

The information in the "Health Sentinel" (United States Disease Death Rates) link is simply incorrect/skewed.

For instance, it has the Pertussis (Whooping Cough) vaccine being introduced around 1940, but it was actually developed in the early 1920's and was already being used extensively before it was combined with Diptheria and Tetanus vaccines to create the DTP combined vaccine in the early 1940's which I am assuming is what your Health Sentinel link is referring to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis

Diptheria's vaccine was created in 1913 after all of the science of understanding the disease had been developed from 1880 forward. The antitoxin while helpful in reducing Diptheria is not an acceptable longterm population-wide solution because of the huge risks associated with it, therefore in 1913 the vaccine was created. The Health Sentinel graph does show a dramatic downtown after that point as well, so it is still correct that the vaccine has been a great benefit to society.

Measles cases and deaths were reduced by 99% post vaccination. While measles was not a 'major killer' (450 deaths per 3.5 million cases) it was/is a terribly painful experience and did kill people.

http://measles.emedtv.com/measles/history-of-measles.html

Also, I notice the graph doesn't include Polio's vaccine history. The vaccine was created in 1950. Within 10 years polio cases were reduced roughly 90% from 33,000 cases to 3000.

The information on the link: Reported Cases and Deaths from Vaccine Preventable Diseases,

United States, 1950-2011*

confirms what I suggested that the mortality rates associated with these diseases have dropped significantly since the introduction of these vaccines.

Do I think that the administration and development of these vaccines could be better? Yes. For instance, you link to DTP's potential association with female mortality rates in specific parts of Africa suggests that there might be an issue there. However, in no way do I think that there is a case for us being better off if society got rid of these vaccines.

Thoughts? You point out the studies, but didn't give your personal opinion about whether we should do away with vaccines altogether? I'd be very interested in hearing your (seeming) reasons for being against the vaccines.

Thanks for the links,

StMiller

The information in the "Health Sentinel" (United States Disease Death Rates) link is simply incorrect/skewed.

This graph from JAMA shows the same trends. Mortality from infectious disease was rapidly dropping before the widespread use of vaccines.

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/55441/1/Aiello%20A,%20What%20is%20the%20evidence%20for%20a%20causal%20link%20between%20hygien%20and%20infections,%202002.pdf

Thoughts? You point out the studies, but didn't give your personal opinion about whether we should do away with vaccines altogether?

I'm not for vaccines being done away with altogether. If people choose to vaccinate as a medical decision and vaccines are legal then they should have that right to purchase them.

I'd be very interested in hearing your (seeming) reasons for being against the vaccines.

Healthy people in general simply do not need vaccines. The marketing and PR that is done is made to inject unnecessary fear into people so they will comply to the wishes of the vaccine program authorities and their partners.

Once you start looking at each disease and vaccine individually a lot of the propaganda falls apart and there very good valid reasons to not vaccinate.

Fact: fetuses are very susceptible to severe damage from maternal measles, among other things, in utero.

Fact: There is an entire generation whose parents drank the koolaid and decided their little darlings didn't need vaccines. Those children are now becoming parents. Their unborn children are at risk of severe disability &/or death because mommy has no antibodies to protect them.

Fact: The current trend is to cut funding for the care and education of children with disabilities, as well as adults with disabilities.

Fact: So little vaccine could have been absorbed by te body within 20 minutes that it would be virtually impossible for the vaccine to have caused a seizure.

Fact: I've known and worked with thousands of doctors and nurses over the years. I do not know a single one who has deliberately left their children susceptible to almost completely preventable, dangerous, and often devastating childhood diseases....and that includes me. I would no more have kept my children unimmunized than I could fly.

Now....if you wish to avoid immunizations for your children, that's fine, but keep their little butts at home so they don't infect everyone around them, because herd immunity is now a thing of the past, and it is well known that there is a very small number of immunized children who do not, for whatever reason, do not gain immunity from their immunizations and they deserve better than that.

The article mentions California as the state having huge problems with disease outbreaks and deaths in babies over the last few years, however, it doesn't mention the fact that California also has a number of "Sanctuary Cities" where vast numbers of illegal immigrants are living!! As you may or may not know, when you are here legally, you are required to submit medical records. So, we have at a minimum 12 Million, possibly 20 Million illegals here bringing (most likely) diseases with them that we had erradicated in this country. Don't blame it on the U.S. children who aren't vaccinated, but possibly on the illegal aliens who brought the disease with them.

Secondly, years ago, I contracted the smallpox virus FROM the vaccination. My home had to be quarrantined, my brother (newborn) and sister (3) had to be taken from the home (mom and dad could stay), my father was not allowed to go to work, and visitors were only allowed to view me from the front porch window. My parents kept me tightly wrapped in clean sheets so that I wouldn't scratch at the sore on my head and face. I refuse any vaccines, including the flu shots, and I never get the flu. My mother just turned 80. She was told to get the flu shot because of her age. For the 3 years prior to last year, she received the shot, and within the 1-3 days following, got the flu so badly, she had to be hospitalized. So, last year, she refused to get the shot and guess what .... she didn't get the flu.

Additionally, My friend, Carrie, when she was younger, contracted Guillian Barre syndrome from the Whooping Cough vaccine. The entire left side of her body was paralyzed, and it took several months for her to regain movement. However, to this day, she still has paralysis on the left side of her face that she will never regain. She is 40, and she refuses vaccines as well.

MelHal1, I would prefer to see some facts behind your blaming the "illegals" in California for bringing these types of diseases because they aren't vaccinated. When my child was born, we lived in Mexico City. While I was still in the hospital, I was given literature in Spanish and English about the need for vaccines. (I would have had her vaccinated anyway.) We knew many Mexicans who had children while we lived there. They were all receiving vaccines. This included people from all "classes", from street vendors, farmers, and those who worked as maids and gardeners all the way up to those who were very well off.

I find it difficult to believe that "illegal aliens" are at the root of California's problem. I am willing to be persuaded--if you can show me proof that is verifiable (i.e. proof, not opinions), I'll be glad to revisit my opinion.

It is frustrating, as well as unfortunate, that so many things are blamed on "illegals".

Here's your vaccination kiddo, and have fun when this triggers an onset of MS. WHOOPS!"

show me evidence of MS in children triggered by vaccination

Oh and by the way, those epidemics are happening to children WHO WERE ALREADY VACCINATED! Why? Because the vaccines are losing effectiveness, and companies like Merck are hiding this fact from the public! You wouldn't hear it on MSNBC slow pitch softball news though!

true. partially because we had to switch to a less efficacious pertussis vaccine because of overly concerned people

Question. If a child didn't get a certain vaccine (or all vaccines) because of the theory that it could trigger MS...what if they caught those disease(s) and THAT triggered the MS anyway? That would suck. Get the measles, polio, whooping cough AND MS. And whooping cough does lose its effectiveness over time. You're supposed to get a booster shot. That's partially why it's coming back. Kids are the biggest carriers of diseases (any parent or teacher should know!!! ugh!), and if the young children get these diseases they will spread them faster than adults or teenagers would. If parents stop getting their kids vaccinated, the more likely they will contract and carry those diseases and spread them around faster to their other friends and into their families - where adults are now in danger of getting them.

I hate to tell you but the group of AMISH kids who all died of measles were ANTI-VAX kids, get your facts straight. Not one vaccinated child has died of measles. Quit listening to Jenny McCarthy (who is ONLY known for being a DUMB BIMBO) and listen to scientists who test ALL sides of an equation.

Vaccines do not cause MS. Got it?

Yeah lets all listen to Jenny McCarthy who is antivaccine but on an Oprah show was nodding her head right along to say yep your dog should be vaccinated and then, AND THEN same show said EVERYONE should try botox injections. Botox is a toxin injected under your skin to deaden nerves yep that is so safe while childhood vaccines are not. So according to that dim whit everyone wants to listen to: you should vaccinate you dog but not your child because your dog should be better protected than your child and we should all inject ourselves with toxin! Brilliant!

I love the freaks who, because of a 1 in a mllion event condemn tens of thousands of kids to DEATH. The anti-vaccine movement is a killer. Children will DIE because of these morons. God they are SO stupid. Parents who refuse to have their children vaccinated should NOT send them to school and should be prosecuted for murder if their kids die.

There is so much logical error in this statement that it must come from someone is either immature, of low IQ, or someone is ignorant of the subject of mass vaccination ethics. I suppose it could be other reasons too but none of them good.

My kids are 100% healthy, Bob. What's your delusional problem? Does medical/pharma propaganda have you believing things in your head that doesn't exist?

Robert, your kids are 100% healthy?? I am guessing they are not vaccinated??
So if I give you a revolver with one bullet in the chamber, and you play Russian Roulette and say 100 times it does not go off. Does that mean, by your logic, that Russian Roulette is a safe fun game and everyone should play??

OR is it just a matter of time??

Try one bullet in an infinitely chambered gun.

The point is you don't know what the risk is for any individual. Do you just assume that every child is a statistical number? The lowest common denominator? The sickest of the sick? The lowest of the low?

Risk is not homogenous. Your roulette example is a closed system with all of the factors know to give the exact risk for everyone that pulls the trigger. The universe is not a closed system of knowable risks.

The universe is not a closed system of knowable risks.

but its certainly not infintesimal as your gun analogy implies. There is a certain risk, that is impossible to predict to an exact number

But it does exist

So, be risk averse and open to disease. smart.

Congratulations!

It only took 3 comments before someone bought forward the illegal alien thing!

Mic -- Is everyone in Cleveland as ignorant as you are? When it comes to their children's health, I doubt those so-called illegal aliens, as you call them, are any more ignorant than Americans who refuse to have their children immunized because of some undocumented "information" they got from FOX news.

Susi, way to start a rational discourse on a subject, with an insult. Too bad your parents didn't have birth control. I would know based on the numbers I've seen that there are millions of illegal aliens without inoculations versus thousands of American kids without. So there are a lot more ignorant illegal aliens bringing and having kids here than there are American born children. Try to curb your anger and let your brain have a chance to think before you comment.

And RamFla, it's ridiculous to talk about proper immunization protocol without identifying the biggest challenge to successful implementation of any U.S. program.

If vaccines are losing effectiveness, that just proves the whole idea is flawed because the viruses simply adapt. We are going to have to continually update the vaccines - THEN it will be worthwhile.

The idea of vaccines is far from flawed, some vaccines require a booster and some require reformulation. Think of antibiotics no one is calling for a ban on them yet we have to reformulate and use different antibiotics as resistance occurs.

Some virus and bacteria target vaccines are active for life, while some others are not.

Unregistered,

It isn't that the virus is adapting. It's that your immune system's "memory" isn't that great. After not being exposed to a pathogen for a long period of time, the cells responsible for making the anti-bodies get down-regulated so if you get re-exposed, you don't have enough anti-bodies to fight off the infection before getting sick.

That's why BOOSTER shots are required for many vaccines. This has been known for a long time. I'm not sure why everyone is making a big deal about it all of a sudden.

I am confused: Where did he argue that parents should not look after their child's well-being?

He is arguing that parents do not have the right to ignore their child's well-being.

The argument is that not vaccinating threatens not only your own child, but also the general public.

It's a false argument. My unvaccinated children have never had a medication in their life and they are 100% healthy.They have healthy immune systems and healthy bodies. Believing that pharma makes you healthy is a lie. I'm not saying it's never needed but it's definitely not needed as much as it's sold.

Robert, please see my post above about Russian Roulette....

See mine...

While chicken pox itself is not that hard to get through for most people, I can say from personal experience that I wish I had never had it, as the shingles that came along many years later was MUCH worse. Shingles is caused by dormant chicken pox virus in those who have had the disease.

The problem is, as we see on newsvine, is that many of the parents who think they are well-educated are not, actually, informed at all.

And the two reasons why so many vacs are given at once is that parents don't like making multiple trips to the doctor and because there is no harm in getting many at once.

Your body reacts to thousands of different germs every day. A couple more in a vac is not harmful.

A child who contracts chicken pox and goes to the pediatrician can infect the NEWBORN that is there for a well-baby check. A child who contracts chicken pox can infect a pregnant mother who is there with her older child. A child who gives mumps to a teenaged boy who then has testicular swelling from the disease will cause that teenaged boy to be STERILE.

I have a boy and he is my only child ... I want grandchildren some day. I PERSONALLY had mumps when I was in Kindergarten but still got a second MMR when I went to college just to make sure that the Measles and Rubella vaccines were up to date - even though I already was immune to mumps.

I laughed at this statement:

There will always be that small exception that reacts violently if they get chicken pox, but that's the case for everything in life--there will always be a small minority that can claim an issue with an undesired outcome.

That's the exact argument that the pro-vaccination people are using. There will be a small percentage of the population that will have adverse (and maybe even deadly) reactions to a vaccine. But there is a far higher percentage of people that will have an adverse (and maybe even deadly) reaction to the disease.

It's not a choice between some risk and no-risk, it's a choice between some risk of dying from a disease and some (lower) risk of dying from a vaccine.

some (lower) risk of dying from a vaccine.

that risk is so low, its almost nonexistant

The risk of dying from some of these diseases is orders of magnitude greater

I work in a cemetery that dates back to the 1700s. I've lost track of the children's burial cards that list "whooping cough", "measles", "diptheria", and such as the cause of death. Just the other day, I came across a 38-year-old who died of tetanus in the 1940s. These diseases KILL.

zyx

You are right on that. I have the death certificate of my great aunt. She died of diphtheria in 1916 at age 4.

People think that the 'childhood' disease are so named because they are silly little diseases that children get and get over. The truth is that these used to be the diseases that you got as a child, and if they didn't kill you you made it to adulthood.

I totally agree with Robert and sfs, Shakalak. I think this is a personal choice like any other health issues are. Why is everyone trying to bully others on how to parent their own child. I would believe a parent that has had to deal with the after math of a vaccine before I would believe anything the government or the money grubbing pharma companies had to say. Parents know their own child and know how they were before and after these deadly vaccines. It's all about population control.......

One child injured or killed after a vaccine is ONE TOO MANY!!!

Agreed. I was prescribed antibiotics a couple of weeks ago following my wisdom teeth extraction. When I would take the pill, I had an odd taste left in my mouth that reminded me of pork fat (disgusting). I got myself through it by reminding myself that it was in minute amounts, that I had to take them or risk an infection that could one, destroy my mouth, and two, transfer to my heart and cause in the worst of circumstances, death...

Many medications have animal products. It's bad...

Parent's aren't allowed to let their kids ride in cars without the proper safety precautions (seat belt of car seat).

Kids aren't allowed to ride bikes without helmets.

Vaccines are used to prevent public health threats. By the time a disease was widespread enough to constitute a public health threat, the vaccine would be useless.

It's not about eliminating risks, that's an impossible task. It is about minimizing risks.

Do you even know what vaccines contain mercury/thimerosal? Here - I'll spell it out for you:

Tetanus (given to those 16 age + ) - .01%

Influenza - .01% (thimerosal free available to 10 and under)

Japanese Encephalitis (who in America routinely gets this one???) - .007%

Meningococcal (given to ages 10 +) - .01% for some doses, 0% for others

END OF LIST. Nothing given to children under 10 contain thimerosal, unless you choose to do the flu vax with thimerosal.

Go back to school and learn to read. Whooping cought cases have doubled SINCE LAST YEAR.

Nope...not from where I stand. I went to school for 16 years. I've never heard of anyone getting whooping cough. My kids are now in school for 10 years now. Only the past 3 years or so have I been getting home letters saying there is a child in the school district with whooping cough. The first year I only got one letter, the next a few more and last year I got one a month. I don't need to read anyone's propaganda - I only need to see it in my own community to know that whooping cough is making a comeback and that has NOTHING to do with the doubling of our population.... Unless it doubled in the past 3 years.

CounterPointer:

We have more than doubled our population since the 1950's. With that in mind, it goes to reason that whooping cough cases have doubled since then.

You should, if you're going to make a counterpoint, not blatantly change facts. It says the number of cases have doubled since last year, NOT since the 1950s.

You wouldn't be deliberately trying to mislead people, would you?

you're so right. I'm seeing more and more even from my own friends on facebook. The constantly post these website articles as "proof" that vaccines are the devil. These articles are crap! lol They all seem like they're written by some pissed off mom or dad whose kid has Autism and now of coarse they have to blame SOMEONE, because it's not possible they got that for any other reason other than that vaccine shot. Come on people. If you're gonna read articles at least read credible ones and read ALL sides of the story - not just the ones you pick and choose to prove you're all-ready-made-up-mind.

If you are that worried, is it unreasonable for you to keep your infant away from other people for a few months? I see week old babies out in public. Does it make more sense to keep babies out of public for a while or to try and make sure all other people are vaccinated? There are more steps to preventing disease than just vaccination and people tend to ignore any other factor when it comes to vaccine preventable diseases.

Keeping infants away from people and making anyone close wash their hands before handling an infant would go a long way to preventing transmissions of anything to the infant. I am all for vaccinations, but I detest that people seem to think it is a magic bullet that will erase all diseases. People just need to be more protective of their babies and stop passing them around like a shiny new toy to anyone that asks to hold them.

I believe parents should vaccinate their children. Despite my belief in them, I do not believe the government should force anything into people's bodies. The herd effect idea should be discarded since there is no way to ever know if the people you are in contact with are vaccinated properly. If you rely on other people to be vaccinated, you are naive. 

Protect yourself as best you can, but do not try to force everyone else to conform to your beliefs on preventable diseases. Forced vaccination may make the country have less cases of these diseases, but personal freedom will be lost. If we lose control of what goes in our own bodies, we have lost our personal liberty. I would choose any danger and even death over loss of liberty.

Babies have to have doctor visits. Where are you likely to encounter sickness.... the doctor's waiting room. Some of these diseases are contagious before they are noticeable. I am an adult with a compromised immune system due to cancer treatment. There are a lot of us, including children, that are more susceptible, are we supposed to stay indoors and just pray that no one in our family is ever exposed either? You may want to risk danger and death but should you be allowed to choose for me and others? How about if everyone that is not vaccinated is isolated? This is a very complex issue being driven by anecdotes and drivel.

I agree. My mother and father insisted that their children received all the latest available vaccines when we were growing up in the 50s and 60s. I had both the Salk (with boosters) and the Sabin oral for polio. However, before there was a vaccine for measles, I caught them.

I have never been sicker in my life. I was about six years old and I still remember the fever dreams over 50 years later. Itching and feeling as if I were on fire and it seemed to go on forever.

Please vaccinate your child.

A new vaccine takes about 5 years to develop and another 5 to pass clinical trials and get FDA approval. Vaccines like measles and whooping cough have been used for decades, billions of shots have been given with virtually no ill effects.

What's safer than that?

The long term effect on the immune system is that it is stronger for having these vaccines, since you now have the antibodies required. Also, the ingestion method doesnt matter, because the end goal of the virus is to get to the blood stream, which it does from whichever entrance it takes. Also also, your body has billions of bacteria and viruses in it all the time. A few more strands, which are dead or weakened anyway, will do very little.

Vaccines ARE the safe and rational way

WisePati,

What on Earth are you trying to say? You ask a lot of questions in a sort of alarmist way, but nothing meaningful, nothing that gives us any real information to go on.

Monkey virus? What are you talking about?

Pets? What does that have to do with us?

What's the long term effect? Well, considering that vaccines have been around for a long time, and we haven't wiped out the population, and those diseases had much lower incidences, I'd say the effect is to avoid illness and death from those diseases for most people.

Wait, I take it back, you ARE fear mongering. No, you typically don't get those diseases from a needle, you get them IN YOUR BODY somewhere. Lungs, blood stream, sinuses, glands, wherever. It does NOT MATTER. If it's in your body somewhere that is living, thus where blood can flow, it can grow, and multiply, and, hopefully, your immune system can and will respond.

And again, no, it's not overwhelming the immune system. You don't get a full-strength version of the illness, that wouldn't help, that would give you the disease. You get weakened or in some cases dead versions of it.

And, the immune system isn't evolved to be exposed to few or many diseases at once, the immune system doesn't care. It responds to what it finds. The "first infection" is the typical "killer" so to speak. But if the first infection is rendered impotent, it triggers production of the appropriate antibodies, and thus most likely immunity, without having to go through the damage the actual disease would cause.

What's so unsafe or irrational about vaccination?

Your post is bizarre, you sound like you support vaccination in one sentence, but sound like you're railing against it and trying to stir up fear against it in the rest of your post.

Actually, the Pope's statement is not that Catholics should not use these vaccines. Catholics are morally justified in using these vaccines if no other alternative is available, but they are called to lobby manufacturers to produce alternatives that are morally acceptable.

"the chicken pox vaccine was created using aborted fetuses"

Yes, lung cells from 3 month old fetus collected in 1961 and reproduced under laboratory conditions for 35 years. At some point, one begins to wonder at what point you let that one go - the current generation of cells is many generations removed from the aborted fetus. I also note that the average number of deaths from chickenpox haa dropped from 105 to 14 a year. That line of fetal diploid cells have done a great deal of good in the world even if it originated in an event that I personally find deplorable.

Oh and regarding MMR - the rubella vaccine actually orginates from an aborted fetus taken from a monther infected with a wild variant of rubella that was known to present significant risk of severe birth defects. So if you are going to go the "practicing Catholic" route you should be concered about MMR too. However, I can take a common sense look at these facts:

As a consequence of the rubella epidemic of 1963-1964 it is estimated that there were 20,000 infants born with congenital defects, 6,250 spontaneous abortions and 5,000 induced abortions. In 2001, CDC reported just 3 babies born with congenital rubella syndrome.

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines

Looks to me like in the case of rubella, the vaccine is actually significantly reducing the number of fetus aborted naturally due to rubella.

Finally, I always wonder about people who believe that the HPV vaccine is bad. For me, the knowledge that 5% of cancers worldwide originate with exposure to HPV is good enough to support my kids getting vacinated - I've supported a family member through cancer treatments and a shot that helps prevent risk of cancer seems a lot less invasive than surgery, radiation, and chemo therapy.

Finally, I always wonder about people who believe that the HPV vaccine is bad. For me, the knowledge that 5% of cancers worldwide originate with exposure to HPV is good enough to support my kids getting vacinated - I've supported a family member through cancer treatments and a shot that helps prevent risk of cancer seems a lot less invasive than surgery, radiation, and chemo therapy.

Here is the story of a child whose parents originally felt as you and had their daughter get the HPV vaccine:

http://www.jenjensfamily.blogspot.com/

No one knows exactly when Jenny's disease began—or what disease she had.
World-class neurologists suspect Lou Gehrig's disease, or amyotrophic lateral
sclerosis (ALS). This relentless killer spares the mind, while methodically
destroying the body's motor neurons until the patient body slips into total,
irreversible paralysis.

Yet medical opinion is not unanimous. The CDC
estimates the odds of ALS among teenage girls at 1 in 3 million, less than those
of being struck by lightning. A far more common cause of paralysis among teenage
girls is autoimmune disease.

This is why world-class immunologists
suspect that Jenny had a potentially treatable autoimmune disorder mimicking
ALS, possibly triggered by the Gardasil vaccination – for protection against the
virus that causes cervical cancer – that she got in March 2007, just weeks
before her hurdle accident. ...

...One does not need to be a statistician to see how unlikely it is that these two
other girls are the only cases out there—or how frightening it is that we
already know of three documented cases of girls (those two plus Jenny) who
developed ALS within several months after their vaccinations. After all, if the
odds of ALS in teenaged girls are 1 in 3 million and we found 3 in only 40,000,
it is very possible that many other of the 6 million girls vaccinated have
already developed severe neurological collapse, like Jenny.

Surely, one not need to be a conspiracy theorist to ask: How many catastrophic 1-in-3
million events, all within months of Gardasil vaccinations, will it take to get
the CDC to launch a major investigation of possible causal connections?

shakalac,

That blog does not really give much in the way of evidence. This seems to all boil down to the parents strongly BELIEVE that it MAY be due to the vaccine.

So, "world-class" immunologists say Lou Gerhig's disease, but "world-class" immunologists suspect that she had a POTENTIALLY treatable autoimmune disorder, POSSIBLY triggered by the Gardasil vaccination.

"world-class" immunologists on both sides of the equation, saying opposite things. None of whom are named.

Sad, but I think this boils down to parents desperately looking for a reason rather than a miniscule, but possible, occurrence of chance.

Miniscule occurence of chance, unless it happens to your own child. Then it becomes 100% chance for that one unfortunate victim.

The chances of it happening to mine will be even less, because they won't be receiving that (imo) unessential vaccination.

And of course, there are many other anecdotes implicating the HPV vaccine and injury to young girls throughout the years. That one just stood out for me.

shak,

you don't get something for nothing. Yes, by refusing a vaccine you have no chance of a side effect, but now you are open to the ill effects from contracting the disease

The real question is, which risk is greater?

Are you sure you have all the facts needed to answer that question?

I had the 3 doses of the HPV vaccine and I know several young women who have had it as well, and we have all been fine. If the vaccine causes such serious side effects, you'd think that not only would there be many more of these stories in the media (like on a daily basis), but that we'd all know someone who was personally affected if it's so common, although I have yet to meet anyone who had a bad reaction.

Well, that's a hoot for you.

You haven't personally met anyone who's had negative reaction to the vaccine. So there can't possibly be someone out there who has???

I could not live with myself if I had to look into my children's eyes and tell them "we were only trying to help" as they suffer the effects of gullaine-barr, or ALS, or constant migraines. Even if they were the only kids on earth to be affected like that (which they wouldn't be, as you would see if you did any research at all on the topic before adding your 2 cents). Getting a vaccine that may or may not give total coverage for a disease (cancer) they have such a low chance of ever experiencing.

vaccine and ALS???

thats never, ever happened

chronic migraines tied to vaccines? Whats your proof?

Anecdotal, Eric. Merely anecdotal. YOu can see my link a few posts up of the story of the little girl who died of ALS like symptoms, whose parents were pushing to get more CDC involvement into research of a possible link between Gardasil and such symptoms in her and a few others.

You got access to Google, don't ya? Look it up. That's what I did.

Those who search for more information on the vaccine may also find stories from other parents who say the vaccine had ill effects on their daughters. One of these parents, Emily Tarsell, started her daughter Christina on Gardasil -- a vaccine that protects against four of the most common cancer-causing strains of the human papilloma virus (HPV) -- after her first visit to a gynecologist and at the doctor's recommendation.

Eighteen days after Christina received her final vaccine shot, she died.

"I know it was the Gardasil," Tarsell said, although the official cause of death was undetermined. "They were really recommending it, saying that there weren't any side effects, that it was safe. So I kind of went against my better instinct [and let her] get the shot."

Deaths like Christina's are one of several types of complications reported to the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) following Gardasil distribution in 2006. Some of these adverse events were serious, including blood clots and neurological disorders, and some were non-life threatening side effects from the vaccine, including fainting, nausea and fever.

Although experts agree that the accuracy of data from VAERS reports -- which can be made by anyone and are not verified or controlled for quality -- is questionable, they remain divided as to whether extreme adverse events, which are serious but rare, are cause enough to stop recommending and administering the Gardasil vaccine without further investigation...

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/CancerPreventionAndTreatment/gardasil-hpv-vaccine-faces-safety-questions/story?id=8356717

It is important to note that Gardasil may not completely protect anyone, nor has
it been shown to protect against diseases associated with the other 26 or more
sexually transmitted HPV types or against diseases not caused by HPV. This
vaccine does not prevent all cervical cancer cases, making it crucial for women
who have (or have not) been vaccinated to continue routine cervical cancer
screenings, such as annual pap smears....

However, Merck has not of yet demonstrated whether receiving Gardasil at an age between 9 and 26 can reduce cervical cancer rates
in women of that age group. Furthermore, of the 79% of women who will be
infected with HPV, about 90% of women will not develop cervical cancer due to
the strength of their natural immune response; as of now, it has not been
determined who will actually benefit from the Gardasil vaccination...

From the time that the FDA approved Gardasil in June 2006 to
February 2011, 33 million doses of Gardasil have been injected in the U.S., and
18,354 reports of adverse side effects were reported to VAERS. About 92% of
those were non-serious, including syncope (fainting), pain, swelling, headaches,
nausea, and fever; and 8% were serious, meaning that they resulted in death,
were life-threatening, caused a disability, resulted in a birth defect, and
caused or prolonged a hospitilization. There have been 51 VAERS reports of
deaths among girls or women vaccinated with Gardasil, 32 of which have been
confirmed. However, it is believed that not all of these deaths and other
adverse side effects were caused by the vaccine. For example, of the females who
reported blood clots after receiving the vaccine, most already had a high risk
of blood clots, such as obesity, smoking, or use of oral contraceptives (Centers
for Disease Control and Prevention, "Reports of Health Concerns Following HPV
Vaccination"). As a result, some physicians are reluctant to blame Gardasil for
all of the reported side effects (Chitale)....

Opinions regarding the safety of Gardasil vary among physicians,
with many urging for more studies of its side effects. Since the vaccine has
been available for about 5 years, there have not been published studies
reporting long term side effects of Gardasil. In accordance with the FDA's
recommendations, Merck is conducting a study of 44,000 subjects to uncover the
short- and long-term side effects of the vaccine (U.S. Food and Drug
Administration, "FDA Approves Expanded Uses for Gardasil to Include Preventing
Certain Vulvar and Vaginal Cancers").

http://www-scf.usc.edu/~uscience/gardasil_vaccine.html

Anecdotal, Eric. Merely anecdotal

even anecdotally, what's the connection between the vaccine and als?

You got access to Google, don't ya? Look it up. That's what I did.

Fair enough. I found it. 2 cases reported. Out of 23 million doses

Thats less than the expected incidence of the disease (1 per 2 million) and juvenile ALS has already been described and linked to a genetic mutation

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2931770/

Not to mention that there's no evidence of a link between the vaccine and ALS except that the patients seem to develop the disease within a few months of getting the vaccine

Thats the same argument the autism-vaccine people had, which was recently thouroughly debunked

So, that weighed against the known and definite complications of HPV, and you still don't believe in the vaccine?

Not 2 cases, 3.

Through their efforts to publicize Jenny's case on their blog, Jenny's parents have connected with two other sets of parents whose daughters developed what appears to be ALS after being injected with Gardasil. One was 22-year-old Whitney Baird, who died last August, just 13 months after receiving Gardasil. Another is Alicia Olund, a 12-year-old who began having trouble walking after getting her third shot last September. She now uses leg braces and a walker at home as her muscles continue to deteriorate. After ruling out other conditions, her specialists at the University of California-San Francisco Medical Center—who also treated Jenny—suspect that Alicia may have the same condition. "They don't know what she has," her mother, Barbara, tells me through tears, "but it's destroying her nerves and muscles, and none of the treatments they've given her are working. Before the vaccine, she was a perfectly healthy child, going for her brown belt in karate." (They're awaiting the results of the ALS test.)I should point out that juvenile ALS is extremely rare, affecting just 1 in 2 million young people. It's impossible to say at this point whether these girls would have developed the condition regardless of whether they received Gardasil, but government officials—who still strongly maintain that the vaccine is perfectly safe and potentially lifesaving—are now starting to investigate. Scientists from the Food and Drug Administration met recently with Jenny's neurologists at UCSF to discuss whether it's scientifically plausible for a vaccine to trigger ALS. And the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is planning to scour its adverse-event database, called VAERS, to see whether other vaccinations have led to reports of ALS or other severe neurological complications.

Turns out, warnings concerning ALS and vaccines have been raised before. John Iskander, the CDC's associate director for immunization safety, tells me the agency previously has received reports of ALS following the anthrax vaccine. This, in addition to the deaths of Jenny and Whitney, "kind of tells us that we need to look more broadly at this issue," he says. He's quick to add that "we're doing just an initial review at this point; we don't have suspicions that these are casually related."

Merck, the manufacturer of Gardasil, maintains that its vaccine is extremely safe and points out that it could potentially save women from dying of cervical cancer. "There are unusual and rare diseases that occur in girls and women in this age group whether they're vaccinated or not," says Rick Haupt, Merck's head of the clinical program for Gardasil. "These patterns don't indicate any causality." He says no cases of ALS occurred in Merck's clinical trials but also admits that the trials—which included thousands, not millions—weren't large enough to detect such rare diseases.

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/on-women/2009/03/20/cdc-takes-closer-look-at-gardasil-and-paralysis

Not 2 cases, 3.

you really think that changes anything I posted? Really? Really?

And now youre going on 2nd and 3rd hand info...

So, that weighed against the known and definite complications of HPV, and you still don't believe in the vaccine?

No evidence of cervical cancer death reduction. It will be 20 more years before evidence is collected. average age of dx is 49 avg age of death is 57. We are vaccinating 9 year olds. You'll have to go on faith until then because it won't be science.

You don't even know if there will be type replacement. Like i said it will be 20 years and the results won't be what you think they will be.

No evidence of cervical cancer death reduction

we know the vaccine prevents some cases of cervical cancer. We know that cervical cancer can be fatal

Logic dictates that this vaccine will save lives. If you have a good reason why that's not true, I'd love to hear it

You'll have to go on faith

Its a little more than faith. Its science, with logical conclusions.

You don't even know if there will be type replacemen

Nothing is certain. We go with our best evidence

OldTeacher - That is the side that the anti-vaccination crowd can't seem to visualize and it is very frustrating. Obviously, in the situation with your child the vaccine was not a medically viable procedure due to the allergy, but for other children without that kind of medical restriction... what parent in their right mind wants their child to go through that? - assuming they even survive. What is even worse is that the anti-vaccine crowd allows these diseases to propogate a higher rates than in a vaccinated society and thus presenting more opportunity for natural mutations to occur. Natural mutations that potentially make the vaccines ineffective - so it isn't just themselves and their families that they impact.

Not for those permanantly injured. But I guess as long as your child is fine right?

How many would there be? as compared to the thousands or tens of thousands of children that would get diseases if there were no vaccines.

I am sure the number of people injured by vaccines is negligible based on the total number vaccinated. The number of lives saved is what we are looking at, not the negligible side effects of the vaccine which is what we are willing to risk. If you are not willing to risk the side effects then you are willing to put your children and society at the greater risk of illness. This is not acceptable. It is one reason we do not let parents make this decision. If your children are going to attend our schools then you do not have the right to put us at risk.

" The number of lives saved is what we are looking at, not the negligible side effects of the vaccine which is what we are willing to risk."

When have vaccination induced seizures, brain damage or death become negligible side effects? I understand your position. These are acceptable consequences until it happens to your child. Then society, percentages and statistics don't mean anything anymore.

"It is one reason we do not let parents make this decision"

Why bother explain the risks then? Force parents to give up their rights and let the government dictate what and when we will vaccinate. Sounds reasonable. Of course, then manufacturers and doctors as well as the government should be liable for "negligible side effects."

Oh wait, they are not liable. Seems like they want their cake and want to eat it as well.

hahaha...from YOUR OWN LINK:

http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/statement-autism-vaccines-mitochondrial-disease

Vaccinations are critical in protecting the health of our children. All children, even those with suspected or known mitochondrial diseases, should receive the recommended vaccinations. The risks of these communicable illnesses outweigh the risk of vaccine-related reactions. Any causal relationship of thimerisol to incidence of autism has been disproven by observing the incidence of autism before and after eliminating this form of mercury from the vaccines. MitoAction encourages parents to talk to their pediatrician about these concerns.

"Unfortunately, the minority of parents who do not immunize their children are causing a huge risk to the rest of the people in America and the world."

If the vaccinations were effective, why would vaccinated children be at risk?

" I understand the unfounded fear of parents concerning autism and the suspicion that vaccines have caused it. I have read a lot of literature and I am still not convinced that vaccines are the culprit."

You understand the unfounded fears concerning autism? So you watched your child regress in to autism after a vaccination induced seizure?

"God Help the Children!"

Does that include those children permanantly disabled or killed by vaccinations, or just those whom were vaccinated and still died from contracting the disease they thought they were protected from?

The pro vaccination crowd will always praise the good side of vaccinations. That is until their child is injured. Then they will understand what the risks really are. They will be able to understand the pain and suffering that others have talked about. They will have to live it every day through the eyes of their child.

Biff, it is true that the NUMBER of vaccinated children contracting the disease is higher than those unvaccinated. However, the as PERCENTAGE the rate at which vaccinated children contract the disease is much lower.

I am sorry but the rest of your post seems to contain many previously-debunked arguments

It is quite simple.

If a virus is allowed to propagate through the non-vaccinated population, it WILL MUTATE. This is what viruses do when they spread unchecked through a large population of hosts.

Once a virus mutates, all previous vaccines become less effective, or worse, they become completely worthless. Once this happens, the virus can spread to the previously vaccinated population, until a new vaccine can be created.

Every person who does not get vaccinated increases the risk of the virus mutating, eventually leading to a pandemic that will take at least another generation to reign back in.

You are part of the problem.

"I am sorry but the rest of your post seems to contain many previously-debunked arguments"

I was unaware that vaccination injuries were merely arguments that have been debunked. Citation please.

"If a virus is allowed to propagate through the non-vaccinated population, it WILL MUTATE. This is what viruses do when they spread unchecked through a large population of hosts."

I see. So a virus will not mutate in a host that has been vaccinated. Citation please.

Once a virus mutates, all previous vaccines become less effective, or worse, they become completely worthless. Once this happens, the virus can spread to the previously vaccinated population, until a new vaccine can be created.

you believe vaccines stop mutation from happening with all viruses and bacteria? Can you give citations and evidence

hahaha...from YOUR OWN LINK:

http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/statement-autism-vaccines-mitochondrial-disease

Vaccinations are critical in protecting the health of our children. All children, even those with suspected or known mitochondrial diseases, should receive the recommended vaccinations. The risks of these communicable illnesses outweigh the risk of vaccine-related reactions. Any causal relationship of thimerisol to incidence of autism has been disproven by observing the incidence of autism before and after eliminating this form of mercury from the vaccines. MitoAction encourages parents to talk to their pediatrician about these concerns.

You probably wouldn't want to vaccinate your child if he/she has a mitochondrial abnormality

like what?

Like Hannah Poling's condition Eric. The underlying condition that caused autistic-like symptoms after her vaccinations.

"Over the past 15–20 years, researchers have increasingly recognized disorders of mitochondrial function. Children with a mitochondrial disorder may develop normally for a while, but when stressed—perhaps by infection or fever—they may be unable to make all the energy that they need. The brain requires a large amount of energy. So, when these children are stressed, the brain is the place most often affected; brain injury of this type is often called mitochondrial encephalopathy. Children with mitochondrial encephalopathy may develop a number of symptoms of brain injury: altered mental state, seizures, problems with walking, poor language skill, attention deficit disorder, and others. Although there is little compelling evidence that mitochondrial disorders are linked with autism, features of autism have been reported in some patients with mitochondrial disorders; mitochondrial abnormalities have also been found in some children with autism."

Children with a mitochondrial disorder may develop normally for a while, but when stressed—perhaps by infection or fever—they may be unable to make all the energy that they need. The brain requires a large amount of energy. So, when these children are stressed, the brain is the place most often affected; brain injury of this type is often called mitochondrial encephalopathy.

They were careful not to include vaccinations as a "stressor".

So Eric, I believe an underlying mitochondrial abnormality may result in vaccination induced brain damage. I also believe we are far from having proper screening techniques in place to detect such a condition before vaccinating. Care to argue about these points?

mitochondrial encephalopathy

I looked this up. Im more familiar with an alternate term for this, ragged red fiber disease

Vaccines don't cause this. My argument is there is no evidence of this occuring, nor any plausible biological mechanism

As for giving patients with ragged red fiber disease vaccinations, I honestly have no idea. Not my area, and not commonly encountered at all

I can't imagine this is picked up incidentally after a vaccine injection though. Case reports of that would be nice

What are you talking about? You claim to be a cardiologist. You can read right?

"Vaccines don't cause this. My argument is there is no evidence of this occuring, nor any plausible biological mechanism"

Never said vaccinations were the primary cause of peturbations in cellular redox. If an individual had an underlying mitochondrial abnormality, a round of vaccinations could cause seizures and brain damage. There is documented cases of this.

My point is that if you are unaware that this may occur, how can you say vaccinations are safe for every individual? The number of vaccination injuries resulting in neurological decline have been increasing. Science is revealing that mitochondrial disorders are far more prevelant than once believed. Try to keep up with new scientific information.

What are you talking about?

what are you referring to?

You claim to be a cardiologist.

Yup

You can read right?

Do you really want this answered?

Never said vaccinations were the primary cause of peturbations in cellular redox.

fancy words don't make you sound smart...just a tip

Anyway, back to the point, it wasn't all that clear what you meant, so I addressed all possibilites

If an individual had an underlying mitochondrial abnormality, a round of vaccinations could cause seizures and brain damage. There is documented cases of this.

I addressed that, and asked for evidence. Guess Im still waiting on it?

My point is that if you are unaware that this may occur, how can you say vaccinations are safe for every individual?

I addressed that, and you may have missed it so I'll repeat it:

I can't imagine this is picked up incidentally after a vaccine injection though.

That means that its unlikely to unknowningly vaccinate an individual with this disorder who doesn't know they have it

I also did a quick search and can't find any cases of vaccine induced injury in these people so again, any case reports would be great

Finally, whats your point? If you show me a few cases, then ok--maybe people who know they have this disease shouldn't get vaccinated

For the people who are asymptomatic, don't know they have it, and don't have a family history which would have entailed automatic screening of the children....there may be 5 people like that on earth. Literally, I doubt the number is more than 1000.

We cannot withhold vaccines from billions of people for some unproven risk to maybe 1000 people

Science is revealing that mitochondrial disorders are far more prevelant than once believed. Try to keep up with new scientific information.

Is that you being a smart a$$? funny. Anyway, your definition of science is apparently jmccarthy twitter feed, so no, i don't keep up with that

Evidence would be nice....anytime now...

There's the Jmccarthy card.

"For the people who are asymptomatic, don't know they have it, and don't have a family history which would have entailed automatic screening of the children....there may be 5 people like that on earth. Literally, I doubt the number is more than 1000."

You're probably right. There's probably only 5 infants in the world with an undiagnosed mitochondrial disease. I won't bother to post any peer reviewed publications that show how ridiculous that really is.

There's the Jmccarthy card.

ha, cmon, you should expect it by now

You're probably right. There's probably only 5 infants in the world with an undiagnosed mitochondrial disease. I won't bother to post any peer reviewed publications that show how ridiculous that really is.

or cause you can't. Whatever makes you feel better...

hahaha...from YOUR OWN LINK:

http://www.mitoaction.org/blog/statement-autism-vaccines-mitochondrial-disease

Vaccinations are critical in protecting the health of our children. All children, even those with suspected or known mitochondrial diseases, should receive the recommended vaccinations. The risks of these communicable illnesses outweigh the risk of vaccine-related reactions. Any causal relationship of thimerisol to incidence of autism has been disproven by observing the incidence of autism before and after eliminating this form of mercury from the vaccines. MitoAction encourages parents to talk to their pediatrician about these concerns.