The rest of the world is getting on board for all the research dollars that are available from all the wing nut foundations. If you read all the research that is not published on outlets like MSNBC, it would make your skin crawl. If people actually read, investigated, or researched a subject for themselves instead of listening to what someone else says about it, we could solve the majority of the political, economic, and health problems in the world. Power, sex, and money still rule everything!

Lets look at this historically:

I'm certain that 50 years ago there was more spanking. Yet it appears that there is much more mental illness than there was then.

Hmmm

what i want to know is the inverse of these studies, of children who are not spanked how many become maladjusted brats? how many of them cannot hold together a marriage because they were never disciplined?

hamjam,

You should be spanked and often, and by someone who knows how.

I love how these civil countries have man-children running around eating everything in sight, driving and texting like that car couldn't kill a few people... but hey that's acceptable... just as they believe they're owed a job, home, credit, and luxury beyond their means... a little discipline as a child might have taught them some restraint or respect for others or at least removed the excuse of 'not knowing' it's wrong.

Spanking a child is not uneducated, the violence you're speaking of is called beating the crap out of a kid and in that case it no longer can be classified as a spanking. You should try keeping your comments to yourself. Not everyone who believes in spanking is as ignorant or uneducated as you. Oh, by the way it's reaffirms not re-affirms.

but hey that's acceptable

Science is not about what is acceptable and what is not. It is about what is true and what is not. What is true is that spanking a child increases the probability that that child will develop a mental illness later in life. It is possible that not spanking them will increase the chance of the child becoming an irresponsible adult (although I don't believe that). That is as far as science can go. It is up to society to decide which alternative is better. This article is about a scientific study, the results of which are not a matter of opinion, but rather are mathematical facts. In this case, the mathematical fact is that children who are spanked are more likely to develop mental illnesses, especially depression, panic disorders, and substance abuse. The interpretation of those facts is open to debate, but the numbers themselves are what they are.

By the way, why should I be spanked?

How did the researchers control for known genetic inheritance of psychiatric disorders? If the children developed more depression, anxiety, or violent tendencies, how much of this can be traced to their parents also suffering from these conditions -- and thus be more likely to strike out at their children rather than practice sensible non-violent discipline?

This doesn't excuse the abuse of children, and I consider spanking ABUSIVE and harmful. Just like it's illegal to strike another adult, even a member of your family, it should be illegal to strike a child - and that includes such euphemisms as paddle, pop, spank, slap, and any other physical attack that results in pain or marks. It's high time that American families abandon spanking altogether.

This article is really about the irresponsible reporting of a study. Kicking, laping, pushing, shoving, children is not spanking a child.

REALLY?!?!? How were these questions asked?

Question 1: Were you spanked as a child? Question 2: Are you now mentally ill?

I wonder what their 'research' would show if they had asked people these questions who were NOT incarcerated.

Thanks amietamant; you're right, at the end, the report acknowledges that the study established a correlation, not necessarily a causal relationship. This makes earlier statements like, "2-7 percent of mental illness....are attributable to physical punishment". Not attributable, associated with. Overall, research indicates that spanking is, at the least, unecessary for discipline and, it may be counterproductive. We chose not to spank and our kids turned out great. However, I think the overall context of the parent-child relationship is more important. My brother and sister in-law spanked their 5 daughters, and they all turned out great, too.

Hamjam,

You should be spanked because you keep blathering on about "scientific study" and "mathematical fact", yet you fail to acknowledge that we very often have papers that come out with "mathematical facts" that are disproved by yet another "scientific study" with "mathematical facts".

Very few studies are designed without flaw. Thus, all studies should be open to question and skepticism.

What are "mathematical facts" derived by "scientific study' today are a source of laughter tomorrow.

You should be cautious what you hitch your wagon to, because it may likely end up in a ditch.

AND, you should be spanked because you do not recognize a subversion of a quote from "Gone With the Wind"

Well I guess my whole generation is mentally ill. We did not just get spankings we were beaten with switches, belts, slippers, rulers and anything else that was handy. It was normal. WWII vets did not put up unruly children. No I never spanked my child but spankings do not cause mental illness.

Spanking a child is the RIGHT thing to do when they deserve it. It teaches discipline. When kids are young they are not intelligent enough to be reasoned with. Pain is the best teacher for younger children, and a swat on the behind is appropriate.

For people who don't spank your kids:

I have worked in a daycare/pre-school, and without a doubt the worst kids were the one's who had parents that didn't believe in spanking. They were brats, unruly and out of control. And these were 4 year olds.

JBintheUS: You are RIGHT ON the money. Spanking teaches boundaries and consequences for your actions. Kids today don't have boundaries and are "unaware" of consequences. A "time out" does NOT cut it! Kids are more out of control than ever because of this PC "Don't Spank" world we live in and parents that can't take responsibility. Children SHOULD have that fear of their parents. KNOW that they need to have RESPONSIBILITY and RESPECT! That fear a child has of their parents STAYS. Once it's established, you almost NEVER need to use it. Time outs? Not so much. When your 17 year old gets in your face and says to you "Whatcha gonna do? Give me a TIME OUT?" You know this method has failed. Knowing they could find themself FACE DOWN for that type of behavior ensures it NEVER happens.

Like anything else it can be mis or over used. That's where the problem lies. It's simple, effective, and has worked for generations. NONE of my peers that I know are "maladjusted" because they were spanked as a child. NONE! Every generation for the past 70 years kids have gotten spanked less and become more disrespectful and irresponsible. Coincidence? Surely not. There's a point where you have to understand as a parent whether it's discipline or abuse and for how long that method of discipline is warranted.

Reno -

First, I would say that NO study is desgined without flaws.

Also, the mathematical facts I am refering to are a description of the results of the study. Barring allegations of data fixing, those are never questioned. What is questioned is the interpretation of those facts. In fact, a new theory has to be able to explain data from past experiments that would appear to contradict it.

Our interpertation of the data changes with new data, but the data itself doesn't change. Any theory that holds that spanking does not cause mental illness will have to be able to explain the results of this study. And that could very well happen, but as it stands, no such theory fits all the evidence. If that happens, I would gladly admit that I was wrong. Thats how science works.

As for the Gone with the Wind reference charge, I have no defence against that.

The belt with the buckle end hurt the most for me. But the worst was being placed in a small, mosquito infested chicken coop for 8 hours because I stole some money from my grandma when I was 6 or 7 yrs old.

I turned out to be a recluse and developed social anxiety because of the incident. However, I never stole a dime from anyone since then, and I've returned several lost wallets and purses to their rightful owners over the years.

There are pros and cons to corporal punishment.

So, was that a pro- or anti-spanking post, Don?

spanking has been linked to mental illness in children and mental stability in their parents so there is an up side.

hamjam, you need to read 'How to Lie With Statistics'.

Beyond that, there are two problems with this study's conclusions. One is with the quoted conclusion, the other with the method. For the conclusion, it is equally likely that the mental conditions caused the spankings, as many mental conditions manifest as children and cause disciplinary problems. For the methodology, the problem is that they apparently group aggressive behavior like being 'pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped or hit' (from another paper on the study) with disciplinary behavior like spanking. Spur-of-the-moment 'punishment' is often inappropriate, whether it is physical, verbal, or material (taking something away). Discipline needs to be done with a calm, collected mind, not in a moment of anger. And 'pushing', 'shoving', or 'grabbing' a child in a calm, collected manner, with the child expecting it, isn't very disciplining. Or traumatic. In fact, in most settings, it's fun (on a swing, into a pool, to raise them onto your shoulders, etc). Thus, for it to be seen as 'punishment', it pretty much must be something done in anger.

This study in no way demonstrates a causal relationship between spanking and problems later in life. It completely ignores the possibility that it is the beginnings of these later life problems that resulted in the bad behavior that resulted in the spanking to start with. It could just be that poorly behaved children who require more discipline when they are young have certain genetic personality traits that also leads to a higher incidence of mental illness and substance abuse as adults. This study is crap science that does not prove anything. It is nothing more than a bunch of so-called scientists manipulating data to support a predetermined conclusion.

LOL at all of the psuedo-scientists on this board !!!!!

I know .. To hell with the study and the evidence !

SPANK EM HARD MY DADDY DID IT TO ME BY-GAWD THAT MUST MEAN ITS OK BECAUSE IT SEZ SO IN THA BABLE !

My sons are in their 20's. I was not a spanker, but their father popped them on the butt a few times. Neither is mentally ill. Spanking is not harmful. Whopping them upside the head, on the other hand, may cause brain damage leading to mental illness. Forcing them to play contact sports could do more harm. Get a grip on reality, folks.

Wow this is just ridiculous! Spanking doesn't do any harm to anyone, I was spanked as a child and turns out I'm not an alcoholic mental case. Pretty sure studies like this is what's turning the kids these days into little monsters. I'd rather beat my child's butt then have them turning out like those kids that were just videotaped making those horrible remarks to that bus monitor. These studies really do need to end, they're a waste of money and just plain idiotic. Spank your kid and teach them discipline so I don't have to hear these parents babying their children for throwing temper tantrums. What a dumb article.

There are claims from both sides in these comments. Those that were spanked, or did the spanking, and those who were not spanked, or did not spank their children. Both sides claim that they or their children turned out wonderfully, with no signs of mental illness.

If the same results can be achieved by both tactics, which way is a better practice?

Obviously, not striking your child and causing physical pain is preferable.

Hitting children to teach them lessons may be effective and it also may not cause any mental illness. My problem with it is that it is lazy, and cruel. It may be less time consuming verbal discipline, but that's a poor excuse.

Question for child slappers: Do you strike your pets when they are "out of line" as well?

Bull $hit, Bull $hit, Bull $hit!!! Since it became taboo to spank in the 80's & 90's, I'd have to say the product of those generations are more screwed up than ever, and it continues to this day. In another storyon MSNBC, it told of several kids being suspended from school for jacking off, while watching porn in school! No one, and I mean no one would have even given that a thought to do something that over-the-top in my generation. Punishment would have been swift and severe. I'd gave the study more credence had it found that kids were mentally screwed up for lack of spanking.

I'm certain that 50 years ago there was more spanking. Yet it appears that there is much more mental illness than there was then.

Hmmm

Apparently you have never heard of Dr. Spock - No, not Mr Spock.

Dr Spock was a HUGE influence on us baby boomers. I was never spanked, nor did I spank my kids. I was always able to find a better way of dealing with the issue. My ex on the other hand did spank them, especially the first two. She had no patience and couldn't work out another way to handle the situation.

Either way all 4 turned out quite well, though the second two seemed to get into less trouble as teens.

Spanking regained popularity in the 80's and 90's thanks to Dr Dobson.

Often spanking is just the lazy way to handle a situation.

Perhaps these people were more prone to being spanked because their mental problems had already manifested as mild misbehavior as children.

To put some perspective on this whole BS business, you need to look at the honesty of the responders to the study. My wife's second oldest sister is mentally challenged (PC for mildly retarded), and has claimed on many instances that their father "Beat" them as children. In conversation with their mother, and the other siblings (all girls), the father never once laid a hand on any of his children, he was a big man, and was afraid he would hurt them, so he let his wife do all of the physical discipline.

Bottom line, I would take any testimony by the responders with a huge grain of salt.

Another possible conjecture - intelligent, empathetic people statistically have more problems with depression and anxiety. The same group normally also have much better memory capabilities. I propose that this group remembers their corporal punishments as children, more clearly.

Not that I am defending or not defending spanking, but another interpretation of this study could be that children who are mentally ill or have a predisposition for mental illness tend to do things to get spanked more often. Another interpretation could also be that mentally ill parents tend to spank more often and there are significant correlations between mental illness in children and in parents, thus spanking will also show up as being related to mental illness.

That's the problem with these types of studies, best case you'll almost always end up with a guess about actual cause and effect. Controlling almost every extraneous variable is almost impossible in human behavioral related studies, so it's often easy to find relationships one is looking to find. Much like fluoridated water being correlated with higher crime rates. The two are linked by mutual factors yet one does not cause the other.

I wonder how much money was wasted on this latest load of soft headed horsesh*t?

WHY do so many people just dismiss out of hand the work of highly trained scientists? In most cases people do this without even reading the peer reviewed paper. Unless you have read the actual peer reviewed study and at least 50 relevant background studies (and understood them) then you don't have any idea what you're talking about.

The fact that you and a few of your friends (or your kids) were spanked and turned out well is completely meaningless as evidence. I mean that. It has ZERO evidential weight. None whatsoever. Zip. Nada. The reason is simple -- because no one ever said that everyone that is spanked turns out badly. Spanking makes you more LIKELY to have problems later. That being the case, the ONLY way to learn whether or not spanking is harmful is to look at a very large number of children under carefully controlled conditions.

In other words, you must perform the kind of scientific study that you dismiss with a wave of your hand.

WHY do so many people just dismiss out of hand the work of highly trained scientists?

Because today's 'high trained' scientists are just whores that are bought and paid for by the special interest groups that finance their so-called 'work'. Scientists today do not collect data and then decide what that data proves. Today's scientists are a bunch of whores that decide what they want to prove for their masters and then cherry pick data to 'prove' it.

The real question we need to examine is: WHY DO YOU CHOSE TO BELIEVE THESE 'HIGHLY-TRAINED' WHORES?

Too bad so many parents use SPANKING to replace intelligent parenting! Never spanked my daughter once, she graduated college a year early and has a full-time job and is getting married very soon. It was done with conversation and respect. I see too often when parents interact with their children, it is the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. Sittin' there with a beer and a cigarette telling their child to go clean their room and how they "have it so easy"compared to how THEY grew up. That's some of the worst type of parenting.

But nooooo, you just keep spanking the future garbage collectors of my daughter's trash.

Well congratulations Wayne...., on raising a fine young daughter. However the evidence is, we have the greatest nation on Earth, built on capital punishment of unruly children, who grew up to be every bit as great or greater than your daughter, who could still end up as trailer trash. The issue is those of us in our 50's and older eventually figured out there would be consequences for bad behavior. Thats not to say that kids need to be spanked to turn out right, kudos to those who are well behaved their entire life. But by the same token, spanking should be another arrow in the quiver, so-to-speak, of tools a parent can use to raise productive offspring.

To the pro-spanking crowd on this thread, you can dress it up anyway you like but spanking is still an act of violence, period. The only question is the degree of violence used. If you don't believe this study, cite one that proves the opposite; otherwise, to scoff at it is to just be making noise.

A good swat on the butt works wonders when it is APPROPRIATE!! I was spanked, maybe like three times as a little girl. It was for doing something REALLY bad, like running across the street, or trying to start my dad's 49' Ford truck and I could have gotten hurt! Other than that, I had things taken away, or got grounded, those worked as I got older. A one time spank is NOT child abuse, as libs and bleeding hearts want you to believe! I am not religious, but it is true "Spare the rod, spoil the child". Time out's do NOT always work!! Imagine a screaming 5 year old kid on a store or restaurant, telling him to stop, a quick spank after a warning he's going to get one, usually works and they will not misbehave again!! Kids test parents, they want to see what they can get away with. If time out's work so great, why are there so many more brats, inconsiderate adults, kids now rule over their teachers and parents! There are some exceptions, some kids NEVER need a spanking, and that's great! All kids are differant in their makeup. It's stupid you can't do a ONE time swat on your misbehaving little angel's butt in public anymore! PEople need to mind their own business!!

My extremely "RELIGIOUS" mother beat the holy hell out of all four of us kids. Three of us (females) had severe over eating issues and two are alcoholics. My brother has been a drug addict and alcoholic for the majority of his life. Depression is rampant in all of us.

YES...BEATING your kids PHUCKS THEM UP FOR LIFE!!!!

Among adults, 2 to 7 percent of cases of mental disorders

That bit right there shows you how seriously this study should be taken.

Agreed.

Lets look deeper. Only 2 to 7 percent of mental cases. What is the percentage of mental cases to the overall population. Don't take the numbers out of context. It's not 2 to 7 percent of kids, just those that end up with a mental disorder. Get real people.

I never laid a hand on any of my kids and they are all stable, well-adjusted, gainfully employed members of society.

Sorry to to blow your theory completely out of the water.

Participants were asked, "As a child how often were you ever pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped or hit by your parents or any adult living in your house?"

None of the above describes spanking!

@Pat8

Spanking may increase a risk - but not disciplining will guarrantee mental illness.

"How do you suppose we came to be the way we are? Spanking didn't create serial killers, thieves, kids that think the world owes them... permissive society did."

False choice, Pat.

Hitting your kid, or not disciplining them at all are not the only possibilities.

Little Johnny, you can disobey me all you want, as long as your ass can take the wear and tear of disobeying me.

There was a farmer who told his friend that he had a mule who would obey every command you gave him, the friend told the mule to sit, the mule just stood there, the friend told the mule to sit again, the mule just stood there, the farmer took a 2x4 and hit the mule between the eyes and told him to sit, the mule sat right down, the farmer said "see, he will do whatever you tell him, but you have to get his attention first".

Disciplining children does not automatically have to involve spanking. That's when it becomes a problem; when that's a parents go to form of discipline without first considering the options and making absolutely SURE that spankings are not delivered in anger. Lots of people like to say that it depends on the kid; some kids you can give them "the look" and they'll straighten up and others you have to spank. I think the major thing here is how a spanking is defined. A few swats on the rear are probably not going to mentally scar a child for life. However, when you start talking corporal punishment, bare skin, belts, sticks, welts, bruises, yes - you WILL mentally scar a child for life especially if that is the first choice of "discipline" taken. Even though there are many fools who believe the Bible to be antiquated and of little use in modern society or a "fairy tale" like book, when it speaks of sparing the rod and spoiling the child it's not necessarily speaking of a rod used for beating. During those times shepherds used rods with hooks on one end to herd their flocks. The rods weren't used to beat their sheep physically, they were used to gather in straying sheep and to ward off predators and PROTECT them. Real discipline comes from real parenting and being involved in their children's lives, talking to them, telling them WHY and the reasons for things, not just "because I said so". Sure it's more convenient to get immediate compliance through pain, but that is not what is best for the child, that is what is best for the parent so they can get back to whatever they want to do without addressing root causes of behavior.

Spanking is and has always been the last resort in the disiplineing of my children. But I tell you now that the filth that is shown on television portrayed as cartoons is disgusting, and you are a fool if you think you can control wether or not your children watch it. I will try everything outside of spanking, but when nothing else works then I will spank their bottom with a paddle. I can still remember when I went to school and after the first trip to the principle's office for a paddleing I made it a point of not repeating that again. Also at this disiplining time there was two other people in attendance as witnesses and my clothes always remained on. I will also add that when I got home I received another spanking because I had got one at school. In those days there was great respect for teachers and the administrators. But there was also great respect for parents and country, we said the pledge of allegience while standing up with our hands over our hearts, and the morning prayer was always sent out over the p.a. system. It did not matter then if your parents did not want you to do this, as an American is was required. I believe to this day that when these duties where removed from public schools in America this became the failing of America and it continues today. America is doomed as a nation unless the love of God and country is not reinstated in sociaty. But I am just kidding myself, this will never happen and America is lost forever. Between the atheist and the influx of islam and the homosexuals, they have destroyed this country. I also believe God has turned his back on America and it will pay the full price for its murdering babies and its immorality and its unbelief.

Yes, it did. We actually spent a very long time thinking that. But the evidence to support it never came, so we abandoned that theory. You can't beat an ADHD kid into paying attention. Its like trying to beat a diabetic into having normal blood sugar. It just ain't gonna happen. The rise in ADHD cases also corresponds with increased awareness of the condition in the medical community as well as the general public.

And as one of those "whining academic ninnies", let me remind you who was responsible for the unprecidented advancments in technology in the last century.

@hamjam

If you're so against spanking than I challenge you to take my 6 year old for a month and see how that "no spanking thingie" works out for you.

hamjam, it also comes with an increased willingness to diagnose it in younger and younger children with less and less evidence that it is true. Many psychologists today will diagnose ADHD in children as young as 2! ALL children 2 years old are hyperactive with short attention spans. It's a part of the age. GOOD psychologists will set an age limit (often around 5 or so), and refuse to diagnose ADHD below that age.

Ha! My Mom spanked me and I was "GT", "AG" and such from the time I entered Kindergarten 'til the point the local school board voted to stop allowing kids with the credit hours graduate early.( Apparently we were making the other kids who barely made it feel bad.)

chuckzul. "...I challenge you to take my 6 year old for a month and see how that "no spanking thingie" works out for you."

It's entirely possible that hamjam has the parenting skills to handle your kid without resorting to spanking. Perhaps next time the child behaves in a way you disapprove, you might ask yourself, "Can I deal with this situation in a manner that does not require spanking?"

It's kind of like when someone says a kid is a difficult child. I say yes, that's the kind of kid that really tests your parenting skills. Many times I get a funny look when adults who are accustomed to laying the responsibility for the situation off on the child actual realize the problem might be a result of their own inadequacies.

There is a difference between spanking and abuse. And this study took that into account. None of the subjects were abused.

As for "spare the rod, spoil the child", that turned out to be crap. There is also a difference between not spanking and not discplining.

being slapped or hit is abuse yet is part of the group.

You are correct -- there is a difference between spanking for discipline and physical abuse. Liberals, who champion allowing children to 'express themselves' even if they are obnoxious and abusive to the adults and other children around them, don't understand the difference and lump any physical contact with a child under the heading 'physical abuse'. I have many other issues with this obviously limited and biased study.

Since when did this become a political discussion? This has nothing to do with politics.

Is there only one way to correct a child? By hitting them? Oh, that's right. That kind of correction is for the uneducated.

Alex, different methods work for different children. My brother has a wonderful pain tolerance and had a terrible rebellious streak as a child. My parents quickly figured out that spanking him didn't work. Instead, they stuck him in a corner. He had very little patience as a child, so that worked wonders.

I on the other hand have only normal pain tolerance and had TONS of patience, even as a child. I didn't get into as much trouble as my brother, but when I did, my parents figured out fast that sitting me in a corner did nothing. Instead, they spanked me.

Both my brother and I are well-adjusted, happy men with good relationships with our parents and others. He's a published author and college professor. I'm an aerospace engineer. I will spank my children when they need it. If it works on them. If not, corners are good. Making them do more chores is good, too. Taking away toys, TV time, game time, etc.

On another note, be creative with punishments. My parents taught us to clean our rooms by taking all the toys we left out and sticking them in a garbage bag in their closet. At the end of every week we could buy back a toy for a quarter a piece (our of our $5.00 allowance). We learned to clean up our toys.

Ranchlady..."What happened to spare the rod and spoil the child."

Nothing, it's still a great policy. The rod referred to in the bible is a shepherd's rod that the shepherd used to gently guide the sheep in the right direction. Ever heard the other scripture that goes, "They rod and thy staff, they guide me."? The staff was a stick with a curve on the end so the shepherd could guide the sheep. So yes, indeed, used guidance and direction don't spoil children.

When I was a child our brain was in our head and parents spanked the other end. There is no way for a child to get brain or emotional damage unless they are now being born with their brain in their butts. My siblings and I were spanked when it was warranted. We all received excellent educations which may have, in part, been accomplished through spankings for making bad grades. BTW, lying, theft, disobedience and disrespect also warranted a good spanking which turned us into good citizens. Thank you Mom and Dad for loving me enough to spank me and keep my on the right path. RIP

An association is another word for a link.

Yes, but many, the authors of this article included, don't understand the difference between a correlative link and a causative link. The one is so unlike the other as to be a different beast entirely.

I won't click on that link, might give me a virus!!LOL!

Spanking teaches the child nothing. Time-outs combined with discussion about what the child did wrong are much more successful in erasing behaviors.

Spanking DOES teach something - it teaches your child to fear you (and NO fear and respect are NOT the same) and it teaches your child to get better at hiding their behavior from you.

The idea that all kids who are not spanked are spoiled, ill-behaved brats is utterly ridiculous. I raised three sons, and never, ever raised a hand to them. They are amazing human beings, have never been in ANY trouble, get wonderful grades, and behave because they actually care what I think - the idea of disappointing me is motivation enough for them. I took the time to actually TEACH my children how to behave and why to behave. That is how they learn in the long-term and internalize the lesson.

Consequences do NOT have to include hitting. All parents should give thought to why they insist that hitting a child is the only discipline choice - you CAN have a well-behaved child without hitting them - why would you choose to hit them if you don't have to?

Thank you Rebel, not just for your comment, but also for how you raised your sons.

Thank YOU for your kind comment!

@RebelMom - same scenario. I have raised two children who were punished when they crossed the line.

One is a successful MD and another is a Ph.D and a Professor. Both graduated at the top of their school, went to ivy leagues. Well recognized and admired in their field.

So your theory of being permissive has nothing to do with bringing up wonderful / successful / amazing children. (So does mine one may claim).

This study is nothing but a waste of time and encourages unruly/undisciplined kids (Yeah the ones you saw in the viral bully video). The father just punishing them would have set them straight (probably).

These morons are just ruining the next generation.

RebelMom, yes, fear and respect are different. They can co-exist, though, and healthy fear is often the beginning of true respect.

Also, most spanking advocates don't really believe that ALL children who are never spanked end up being ruined, just like most spanking opponents don't believe that ALL children who are spanked end up being violent or mentally damaged. It's just easier to speak in vague, cruel generalizations than to actually spell out the details.

Very few people say hitting is the only tool in the disciplinary box. I say it should still be one of the tools, though.

Why teach your children that they should fear you? Why teach your children that violence is a good means to get what a person wants?

I'm sticking with you guys!

I didn't spank my kids, that's not how I handle MYSELF. They knew I was mad at their behavior and were disciplined with age-appropriate punishments a few times. They're well adjusted, smart and educated adults now.

I was spanked when I was a child and got the old "I did it for your own good and because I love you" blah, blah, blah lecture when it was over. All I learned in the end was if you're going to do something not approved, make sure it's worth the potential whacking or make certain you don't get caught.

Fortunately when I was bit older, my grandfather sat me down and taught me right from wrong. Him taking the time to give me his undivided attention and teach me a lesson about life was a million times more influential than any spanking I ever got. After that, I chose to do or not do things based on whether it was right or wrong, not whether or not I might get caught.

Best way is to have the discipline fit the crime...kid makes a mess, kid has to clean it up. Kid whines, parent doesn't listen until child speaks in a non-whiny voice. Kid forgets to put something away that is theirs, kid loses the privilege of that thing for a certain period of time (if it's a family thing, same deal). Pain just teaches fear. Even toddlers can be made to understand, wait, and do as told WITHOUT physical punishment. Parent in love, parent when you are calm. If you are so angry that you want to hit your child, YOU need to have a time-out yourself.

As children get older, they can even start to help chose their own discipline. Asking a child straight-out what they think is appropriate is usually pretty effective and comes up with a solution that's going to really teach them what it is that you want taught.

Fighting...well, in my opinion, if siblings fight, they have lost the privilege of playing together. Yes, I said privilege. However, with this privilege means that they cannot play in communal spaces OR they must take turns.

Across the board, misbehaviour is most likely to happen when children are tired, hungry, sick, bored, or feeling neglected. It is MOST effective, especially when they are little to STOP the misbehaviour before it happens by looking out for the warning signs of children about to melt-down, and responding by giving your attention even if it's just to say "I can see you're getting hungry, you have to wait about 10 minutes and then we'll eat" (and repeating as necessary). Children CAN be taught patience even from a very early age.

One of the most challenging approaches to parenting and discipline, especially if you were "spanked" (or had physical punishment levied upon you) as a child, is to adopt the opposite approach once you are an adult with children. Breaking the cycle to explore different means of discipline is very difficult, but it expands the repertoire of your parenting skills immensely. It makes you THINK, rather than relying on "well, it was good enough for me, and look at just how dandy I turned out!" You may not get it perfect, but your child(ren) will benefit tremendously from your efforts.

Besides, the definition of 'spanking' is a VERY slippery slope. What one person considers spanking may mean something entirely different to someone else. I say err on the side of avoiding physical confrontations with your children.

I say to each is own, do not force your ways of thinking on me. I was spanked and did not in up a criminal or a child abuser, I spank my children when it is called for. I feel the same way about all of my beliefs, do not bring your homosexual lies into my childs classroom and tell them its ok to be that way. I teach my children to respect all people, but I also teach them my ideas of what is right and what is wrong. If you want to be a homosexual then thats your choice but when you attempt to over ride the way I raise my child then you and I are going to have a major problem and if that means going to jail then so be it. I feel the same way about disiplining my children, you do it your way and I will do it my way, I will not interfer with you and expect the same considerations from you. I will say this the next time you take your child to the supermarket and they start screeming at the top of their lungs and all you do is say stop Jimmy or I willl take away your toy and I say stop or I will take you to the restroom and tan your rear it would be interesting to see which would work the best.

Sorry, but I hate it when a parent ignores thier kid's whining and screaming! We don't want to hear it!! If you tell them firmly to use their indoor voice,and to stop whining, and they shut up, GREAT!! But some kids won't and will continue to scream away, DON'T give them candy or a toy to get them to be quiet, now your rewarding bad behoviour! Take them outside til they calm down or tell them we are going home and follow thru with it so they take you seriously! Since the CPS police are all out there, you can't spank in public, take them into a bathroom and do a one time swat. AS a last resort! It gets their attention like WOW! I shouldn't be doing this!

My question is - when did grabbing your kid become abuse? If your toddler darts out into the street, or your child is about to pull a bookshelf over on top of themselves, grabbing them to get them out of danger now makes you a child abuser?

yup, today it does. the household is supposed to be run by toddlers who believe in the boogyman and think ice cream is a food group. they should be set free to do whatever they want and we can sit back and cry when surprisingly enough they turn out to be tyrants who cannot take no for an answer

Lets take it one step further. What about bulling? Would that not also lead to a mental disorder? It's still being pushed, harassed, grabbed.. by someone else. If you believe all you read, then any kid who was bullied ends up taking a gun to school for revenge. It does not happen. I was bullied in school and I never once thought of taking a gun to school. I may have dreamed of kicking the crap out of the bully, but never using a gun. Get over these dumb studies and let parents raise their kids.

princessbride, if grabbing is used as a form of punishment, it does kind of sound abusive. If it's protective (grabbing them away from the street, from a burning flame, etc.) that's another matter entirely.

I was spanked a few times as a child, and I'm pretty sure I deserved it. I didn't act out much, overall, and part of the reason was the fear of getting spanked. I most certainly don't feel that those spankings were abusive. I acknowledge, however, that it did help to distance me from my parents and I was more inclined to hide things from them out of fear, and I do wish it wasn't that way.

I do not spank my daughter. When she was little, like 18 months, and would grab at something that would hurt her, I smacked her hand once or twice because it was definitely the lesser of two evils. Now that she's almost 5, she gets time-outs and has had favorite toys taken from her. She does not like either of those things, but she is being taught consequences for her actions. Get out of bed twice after bedtime for no good reason (I want another drink of water...I want another hug and kiss), and we will threaten to take the beloved fluffy puppy for the night. Works like a charm.

I don't hit people and I don't want anyone hitting me. Why would I try to change bad behavior with a violent act? You can't ask for peace while looking down the barrel of a loaded gun. I will not break her confidence in my love for her by inflicting physical harm on her. I am here to protect, guide and teach her to be the best person she can be. I don't believe hitting is the answer.

Grabbing them to prevent them doing something that will result in injury &/or death went out of fashion right around the same time that smacking the hand with the bobby pin reaching for the wall outlet did.

As for making your child afraid of you....fear is the univarsal motivator. We fear having to go to court, pay a large ticket, and pay higher insurance, so we wear seatbelts and drive the speed limit. We fear losing our job, so we do what we are getting paid to do rather than playing beach volleyball all day. We fear screwing up our relationship with our spouse, so we don't continue sexual relationships outside the marriage. We pay property taxes because we fear losing our homes to a tax lien sale.

Need I continue to point out the obvious? Now....that being said, there is a distinct difference between fear and sheer terror.

Fear.....in this context....shows respect.

My point precisely.

thedeb, who's to say your daughter might not be more traumatized by having her beloved fluffy puppy taken away for the night, then having to spend an anxious night without the additional hug/kiss she was craving and the perceived security from fluffy puppy, than enduring a thwack on the bum that'll sting for a minute?

Who comes up with this stuff.

That would be scientists. People who spend a small fortune working 60 hours a week for 8 years to earn their degree, then pour over unbelievably massive piles of data trying to find a way to explain the natural world using mathematics and logic, all in an attempt to improve the lives of average people. They have jobs. They just aren't high paying jobs.

hamjam, many scientists believe in spanking, myself included. The problems in this study are gross and obvious. In my line of work, it would never have gotten funding.

@hamjam In my statistics class in college, the professor told us that "Statistics don't lie but liar's use statistics" I never will just take a handful of studies as proof.

Like for example, scientists said that eggs were really bad for us and then said years later said, "whoops no they are not so bad after all" One study or even a handful does not make something fact.

That is why I really dislike when the news media finds one study and touts it as proof. It takes quite a few studies to prove anything conclusively even from a scientific standpoint. And it is very possible to make something look and sound plausible when it is in fact not.

Aside from all of that, everything that I'm seeing in this study is derived from the perceptions of the people being studied, without any factual corroboration. If you ask the parents of those few who are being cited, you may well be told that they were absolute hellions that no other form of punishment even made pause.

"Time out" and "re-direction" doesn't work with kids these days.

Why not? What makes "kids these days" different from kids in the past? You here it said that kids today are worse than ever before, but where is the evidence of that? Violent crime is at a low, graduation rates continue to climb, and while kids do stupid crap, they always have. My dad refuses to talk about some of the things he did when he was a teenager, and that was before Nixon was president. What evidence is there that kids today are any worse than before?

Just a causal observation, but when I hear children telling them parents to shut up or calling the horrible names in public places, and it is often, I tend to think these kids are worse then they used to be. I was spanked, turned out fine, and I would never have dreamed of talking to my parents in such a disrespectful manner, ever.

That is not what you would call reliable evidence. The data just doesn't support that view. The DOJ has shown that violent crime has continued to drop since its high in the late 80's/early 90's.

The things you described are bad, but you have nothing to compare them to.

Obviously, I was not citing any kind of data or presenting any reliable evidence, just making an observation.

hamjam, what makes 'kids these days' different from kids in the past is that, in the past, time-outs and re-directions were enforced with/replaced physical punishment if need be. Take physical punishment out of the mix and it's only so long before the child asks 'why should I stay in the corner just because mommy told me to?'

C. Smith-

So they should stay in the corner out of fear of physical pain? Sounds like a delightful message.

hamjam, I have to disagree with you. Violent crime is NOT at an all-time low. The news is glutted with it. Not to mention all the reports of all reports of awful, if not violent things people do to others, simply because people have no compassion, no understanding of the heartache or hardship their actions have on one another.

As for graduation rates, you can't live by numbers. If you look at the quality of education, the numbers are misleading. I have edited letters and essays written by high school graduates for job and college applications and they were just AWFUL. Students today can't even spell, or tell you the difference between they're, there, and their, or your and you're. Not to mention Aww and AWE, or the proper use of an 's.

Doing something stupid is shoplifting, or trying weed for the first time. Now you have kids that walk off with a piece of jewelery because it takes their fancy, and then posting it online because they have no fear of reprisals, and they want to show off what they did. Look at the kinds of things kids are posting online because they don't have fear of punishment. How many kids have been caught in their wrongdoings because they posted videos of themselves ganging up on and beating the daylights out of someone, or mobbing together to torment an elderly woman? How about the ones that post on their facebook pages pictures of themselves with things they've stolen, or with drugs they're selling or buying.

Attitudes are not quantifiable, but when you look at they way young people think nowadays, things like work, school, accountability and compassion are lost in the desire for distraction. Their entire lives are focused on their electronic gadgets. This drive for distraction has reached the point where phone companies have created apps that allow someone to use their phone's camera to see where they are going so they don't have to do the reasonable and intelligent thing; put the phone away and watch were they're going.

It's true. the youth today have no motivation, drive, or sense of propriety. Not all of them, but a LOT of them. No, you cannot attribute this appalling lack of accountability and their frightening sense of entitlement to spankings or a lack thereof. Everyone needs to stop bickering over this article. It's misleading and biased. The problem with statistics is that you can interpret them to say almost anything you want them to.

@Zieglo87, what you're talking about is abuse. Spankings are different. If minor discomfort or pain was truly that damaging to the brain, we all would be in trouble. Pain and discomfort are the body's way of letting us know when something is amiss with our bodes. (and that can be anything ranging from illness, to injury, or even the pain one experiences from working out.) The minor pain/discomfort associated with a quick swat to the posterior is not going to cause mental illness or terror, the way you're implying.

I don't believe that spankings are harmful. I believe beatings are harmful, and I believe that mental and emotional abuse are to blame for any negative effects of corporal punishment. The pain of a spanking fades, but having a parent tell you that you're worthless, stupid, or evil leaves a lasting impression that follows you into adulthood. Just as in everything, there must be moderation and good judgement. If you go back and read the comments on here, the only ones that have made real sense and "ring true," have been the ones that acknowledge that what works for some doesn't necessarily work for others, and that there are good and bad kids/parents on both sides of the issue.

News is 'glutted' with it because we are a sensationalist society that just lives to lap that up. We are in an instant society, where the latest violence turns up on Twitter or any other internet site minutes after it happens.

Crime rates actually ARE lower.

My true feeling about the main reason that kids talk poorly to their parents is that they HEAR it. Parents talk poorly, kids watch tv shows or hear others doing so, so it's normal to them. I hear parents telling their kids to shut up or swearing in front of them (if not to them) when I ride the buses almost every single day.

I am not that old, only in my twenties, I can say that I NEVER swore at my parents (or ever, for that matter, believe it or not), or told them to shut up. I can remember telling my mom to LEAVE MY ROOM or GO AWAY because I was NOT in a talking mode and she had pushed her way in when I just wanted to cry on my own and go to sleep, but that was the limit of it. If parents respect their children and if it is taught from an early age that they are NOT allowed to talk that way (and it does NOT have to be physical punishment, which I DO NOT agree with), it will happen.

Teach by example. If you want your child to use gentle hands, speak with respect, share, or have a calm attitude, remember that you must be the example for your child.

CheriL, I've seen letters, essays and reports written by college graduates and post-grads that made me cringe - misused apostrophes, confused homophones as you mention, dangling participles, subject-verb disagreement, and just plain bad grammar and syntax that bordered on baby talk.

Nirvana, from your description, I would bet the problem was a domineering father-figure, not the fact that he spanked you. He could have used verbal punishment (telling you what a bad thing you did) or material punishment (putting you in a corner, taking away your toys), and similar damage would have occurred.

Of course, that's just my guess from a very brief description.

I agree with C. Smith, each child is different and each child reacts differently to punishment and correction. I have seen some children that a look is all it takes to correct them.

The people who feel that spanking is wrong should compare children with the ones that do.

That is EXACTLY what the authors of this study did.

Not really. They took a few biased statements......my mom/dad beat the crap out of me (when they caught me in their bed with my girlfriend, a quart of their 20year old brandy on the nightstand and a joint burning the edge of their fifth generation in the family hand crafted dresser) is junk science, and that's being generous.

You can skew the numbers to say whatever you want them to say, and you don't even have to have a high school diploma to know how. There are times when higher education simply teaches people how to make their point of view appear valid to people who share their views in the first place..

A few? Take tens of thousands. I believe it was close to 40, 000.

Since when did the term "more likely" become actual scientific fact???

That would be since the development of inferential statistics. Its kinda how science has worked for the last 100 years or so. Also, a 59% difference between two treatment groups in a scientific study is not minimal, its titanic.

No where did the study mention SPANKING....which is what the article was about. Was spanking mentioned in their survey questionnaire? What where those percentages?

a 59% difference between two treatment groups in a scientific study is not minimal, its titanic

Be careful not to lose the context of who the 59% applies to, and that is the 6% or 2,079 that claim they were "OFTEN" disciplined by being physically pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped or hit by your parents or any adult living in your house sometimes, fairly often, or very often in childhood? None of those is spanking.

Most parents I know don't use those forms of punishment on that survey on a regular basis, or MOST LIKELY, never. Spanking on the tush is much different from the the 6% in the survey said they suffered from. This article was a mis-representation of the facts.

The article is actually fairly ambiguous about exactly what questions were asked of the participants. It says that 6% experienced what you described, but it also says that more than 50% said they were spanked. One would have to ready the actual study to know precisely what the survey contained, but I can tell you from experience that it never has just one question on it.

Most parents I know don't use those forms of punishment on that survey on a regular basis, or MOST LIKELY, never. Spanking on the tush is much different from the the 6% in the survey said they suffered from. This article was a mis-representation of the facts.

disciplined by being physically pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped or hit

How was it a misrepresentation? Did you miss that word HIT in there? That's what spanking is--it's HITTING. You can try to dress it up with all the pretty words you want, pop, tap, etc, but it doesn't change the facts. You are hitting your child. You, like most if not all spankers, probably have some degree of cognitive dissonance going on. You'd have to. I don't think anyone could spank his or her child without some level of disconnect and dishonesty within him or herself about the reality of what was really being done. Hitting is an expression of violence, period. If you hit anyone else of the planet except your own child, it's a crime, and in Sweden it's been a crime to hit anyone including your own child since 1979. That should tell you something.

Sweden does have a notoriously violent, chaotic society where poverty is rampant, crime is out of control, and kids listen to loud music at all hours of the night. Wait. None of that is true.

Well, maybe the music thing.

Exactly.

There is a big difference between child-hitting, as you put it, and a spank on the tush. The study they referenced in this article surveyed parental actions that went beyond a normal spank and doesn't even support the context of the article...which is about Spanking...not being pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped or hit by parents:

As a child how often were you ever pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped or hit by your parents or any adult living in your house?"

Truth_Hurts, I agree that there are degrees of hitting. But psychologically it still hurts to have someone we love inflict pain on us as a means of proving a point. It relieves the parent's frustration, but at the cost of hurting their child. I wouldn't doubt that many spouses who hit their wives learned as spanked children that striking out at a smaller, weaker person when frustrated is an acceptable way to express anger.

Sounds exactly right. I am a HUGE fan of brief time-outs for parents. If you are angry, you can't discipline properly. Take a breath. Make the discipline fit the crime. Generally, when a child misbehaves, especially when they are young, which is when spankings are most likely to take place, they are either unaware of their misbehaviour, or they are starting to fall into the tired-hungry-bored-feeling neglected trap. They are getting physically and emotionally out of whack and aren't old enough to understand it. How many times have you heard a very, very young child crying for something in the checkout at, say, 5:30pm or 2pm (when they should be napping or resting)? Yes, even then, it's important to reinforce, but this is also a time when they are much less likely to be able to handle ANY kind of discipline, let alone have it make any difference. I can say that when I get home at 10:30 pm after being out since 7am, having an hour bus ride home and working on my university coursework for several hours straight that I am certainly not at my best-I'm hungry, tired, and worn-out as well. Because I'm an adult, I know that it's a temporary situation and can temper my environment and my actions so that I can take care of my needs (a small snack, rest and then going to bed).

Discipline when calm, and teach when children are calm. If you wait until both of you are frazzled, it's no wonder that things happen.

wayne 997, are you raising your daughter to be an intolerant and ignorant snob like yourself? Is that your idea of "intelligent parenting?" Those superficial and stereotypical signs of well-adjustedness that you cite - college degree, full-time job, marriage - are certainly not proof of mental stability. It's also ignorant to assume that people who perform manual labor or low-paying jobs grew up undisciplined, and to look down on them. You and your daughter would be living in a trash heap without people to collect your trash. Do you consider supermarket cashiers and restaurant servers to be beneath you as well? Unless you grow and cook your own food, and reuse or compost all your trash, you'd do well to get off your high horse and also thank those undisciplined workers who built your house, installed the wiring and plumbing, etc, etc.

I doubt that children of the age I've specified have the ability to think at this level.

Actually, not only do children have that ability, many invertebrates do as well. Hell, you can train an earthworm. The 5-10 year old range is actually the perfect time for that, because that is when children are developing the concepts of cause and effect.

Also, children do need to learn to fear their parents.

I think they need to respect their parents, not fear them. Fear is something that can control behavior, but it is very closely linked (psychologically and anatomicaly) with anger. I was raised by two parents that I love, respect, and admire. I was taught right and wrong early in life, and I have never comitted a crime. And I was NEVER spanked, hit, or slapped. My parents never laid a hand on me in anger. That doesn't mean I wasn't punished. You don't have to hit people to punish them.

Give kids credit. They're smarter than you think and yes, at age 7 or 8 they DEFINITELY get this concept of bad = no reward and punishment, while good = reward. My daughter got this concept at the age of 4.

As a parent, I would prefer that my kid's are straightened up by my "punishment" than being penalized by the system. It not only damages them permanently - they become a lost cause. An example is the Dharun Ravi case. One can easily conclude from the reports that he was adored and the parents even admired ALL his pranks. Just look what it did to him?

Hamjam and Hot-in-Miami:

Maybe I got the age braket wrong. Probably should have been younger. (Obviously, I'm not a clinical psychologist.) I don't think very young children understand respect in terms of granting others their worthy regard. They do know fear. Until they are capable of respect, fear is the tool to use. It's up to the parent to know when to transition from one to the other based on what the parent has learned about the nature of the child.

Also based on the parents knowledge of the child, physical punishment may not be necessary. If that's the case, spanking may indeed be harmful. If that is not the case, not spanking may be harmful. It all depends on the child. It's the parent's primary responsibility to know the child and then act accordingly.

hmd-

Fear is never an acceptable form of respect. Fear also does not develop into respect.

zieglo87:

Perhaps I did not make it clear that I do NOT equate fear and respect. They are perhaps related but not the same. Nor does one become the other. My point is that very small children know fear. It's a very basic phenomena and requires little if any reasoning to know it. Therefore, when children are still of an age when they cannot reason well enough to grant respect to a parent, fear would be the tool to use for behavioral control.

Also, by fear, I do not mean terror; an extreme state of fear. Terrorizing a child is unquestionably abusive.

I certainly understand your frustration with teenagers - I have 2 at home right now. But it may have helped you if you understood the biology and development aspects of the teen years - the assault of hormones literally changes their brain function - their brains have to completely re-wire themselves. Add to that the social changes and physical changes and it's a nightmare for everyone! Maybe all parents should have to take a human development class! It passes though, I promise! If you had hit them they would just be worse - and better liars!

As someone above said, just because you were spanked and had no mental illness does not mean this is true for everyone. Some people are more sensitive, and others have thicker skin, so it may affect some very negatively. Also, while many of us may think we're sane, the opposite may be true. There's no such thing as a perfectly sane person, we all have our neuroses, hang-ups, depressions, and obsessions.

Mom-

The study did not show that all people who have mental illness were spanked or vice versa. There is never a one to one ratio with studies, except that all people will die.

As one that was paddled by my kindergarten teachers for every minor infraction and even a few imagined ones, I wholeheartedly agree. Any form of corporal punishment needs to stay with the parents. I'm almost 40 and I still vividly remember being bent over the stairs and hit with a wooden paddle several times daily for any and every excuse imaginable. THAT is abuse. Using a belt, spoon, etc. is abuse. When you use your hand, you tend to ease up on it because it hurts you, too. And that is the way CP should be handled. Spanking a child is not something I personally do because I relish being violent, and I am tremendously offended by the many people on here implying that I am some vicious brute that enjoys hurting my babies. I was abused. Not to the beaten bloody extent, but my parents went too far. I was beaten with belts, spoons, brushes, cords, sticks, switches, and occasionally my father's hand. I frequently came away with bruises and welts, and marks that lasted days. I was also belittled, cussed out, and made to feel like thee scum of the earth. I DON'T do that to my children. I know what it's like, and I'm empathetic enough to not want my kids to feel like that. Especially since three of my four have been developmentally delayed or Autistic. But there is a line, and that line is CLEAR. If it's dangerous (i.e. running out into the street, reaching out for a hot stove, or sticking things in a light socket, etc.,) you're going to get popped on the butt or on the hand, and then I'm going to explain to you that you could have gotten seriously hurt or killed. If you are being a danger to someone else (i.e. Biting, punching, etc.) it's the same sort of thing. I mix it all up with time-outs, removing their toy(s), restricting access to entertainment, etc., and additional chores, or make-good type of work.

There is no one right solution to this. It has to be adjusted appropriately for each family, child, etc. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but calling someone a violent, sadistic child abuser is pretentious, arrogant, and presumptuous.