Are doctors rich? They don't think so, survey finds

By Sarah Barr
Kaiser Health News

Few doctors think of themselves as rich, and only about half think they’re fairly compensated, according to survey results released this week by Medscape.

The annual survey isn’t scientific – and perhaps, not surprising, either — but it offers insights into what nearly 25,000 physicians earn, and how they view that number. In 2011, compensation self-reported by surveyed physicians ranged from an average of $156,000 for pediatricians to $315,000 for radiologists and orthopedic surgeons.

The survey showed that 51 percent of all physicians — and 46 percent of primary care physicians – think they’re compensated fairly.

Only about 11 percent of doctors consider themselves rich, mostly because of their debts and expenses, according to Medscape.

The survey also offers a glimpse at how physicians view coming changes to the health care system, such as efforts to improve quality or offer care through accountable care organizations, which are integrated systems included in the federal health law.

More than half said they expect their incomes to decline because of ACOs (although very few were participating in such a system), and only 25 percent said quality measures and treatment guidelines will improve patient care.

Overall, 54 percent of physicians said they would choose medicine as a career again. Only 41 percent said they would choose the same specialty and 23 percent would choose the same practice setting.

Others groups that survey physicians about their income include the Medical Group Management Association and Merritt Hawkins. A 2011 MGMA report, for instance, which looked at data from 2010, found the median compensation for radiologists was $471,253 and $192,148 for physicians in pediatric/adolescent medicine.

Medscape surveyed 24,216 physicians across 25 specialty areas from Feb. 1-17, 2012 using a third-party online survey collection website.

Physician compensation in 2011:

Pediatrics -- $156,000
Psychiatry -- $170,000
Obstetrics/Gynecology -- $220,000
General surgery -- $265,000
Plastic surgery -- $270,000
Cardiology -- $314,000
Orthopedics -- $315,000
Radiology -- $315,000

For complete chart: http://capsules.kaiserhealthnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/doc-salaries-500.png

This story was produced in collaboration with Kaiser Health News, an editorially independent program of the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonpartisan health care policy research organization which is unaffiliated with Kaiser Permanente

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They aren't rich. If a doctor is single they are doing pretty well, but with a wife or husband who stays at home, and a family, they are just comfortable.

By the way, it took 18 minutes to load this article on my rural dial-up. Now that's poor.

    Reply#129 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:15 PM EDT

    I wonder if they counted the cash payments or the perks from the drug companies like trips, club payments and golf outings. Remember most of the cost of their education is paid for by the American taxpayer in the form of grants. I do not begrudge them their earnings but the whining about how little they make is out of line. As far as the CEO's they are just over paid conmen fleecing the public.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#130 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:33 PM EDT

    So. Bx John

    Your friggin high. The drug rep thing is long gone. And our Congressman with so many other responsibilities makes it an offense to even receive a pen with their logo on it. No industry is as regulated as the doctor's. Grants pay for a doc's education? What? Where do you get your misinformation?

    • 3 votes
    #130.1 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:01 PM EDT

    Remember most of the cost of their education is paid for by the American taxpayer in the form of grants

    Hmm, I've never had a single grant for medical school. In fact, they aren't available to medical students. I do, however, have about $55,000/year in student loans from medical school.

    • 3 votes
    #130.2 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:31 PM EDT

    I think a lot of people are unaware that, unlike undergrad, there are very few scholarships for graduate or professional programs. I won enough scholarships in undergrad that I was able to attend a private school for less than the cost of a state school. Those scholarships simply didn't exist after I got my Bachelor's.

    • 1 vote
    #130.3 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:42 PM EDT
    Reply

    I come from a family of doctors. I was very privileged growing up and would definitely say that my family members all have and do enjoy a life style far beyond that of the average American.

    My sister hates practicing medicine but went into the field so she could maintain the lifestyle. Given the quality of healthcare I've received in recent years, I would say that it's a common problem in the field today. Just a bunch of paycheck collectors who care nothing for the patient. There are some notable exceptions out there, but not as many as there should be. Used to be that it was a status profession because of the place they occupied in the community, rather than the pay. So sad.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#131 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:39 PM EDT

    An annual income of $300,000 barely makes you middle class these days. If you're going to invest 15 years in educatation and $200,000 in debt, it doesn't make sense to be a doctor. Much better to be a banker with sticky fingers who pulls in $millions per year.

      Reply#132 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:40 PM EDT

      interesting how a radiologist who basically interacts with images and needs no interpersonal patient skills to speak of earns the most of the listed specialties.

      i wonder why.

      • 1 vote
      Reply#133 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:53 PM EDT

      maridanne: I don't know if they are lumping all radiologists together or not in the survey. There are diagnostic radiologists and interventional radiologists. Interventional radiologists do a lot of peripheral vascular procedures and other procedures.

      Also, it's a very competitive residency to get into. Tt may come as a surprise to some, but to the average board scores to even be considered for a radiology residency are amongst the highest of all specialties, the average Step I USMLE Score for those that matched to radiology residency is a 238 (the highest you can score Step I is 260). The DO rads residencies won't take someone with less than a 650 on the COMLEX (the top score on the COMLEX is 800). A radiologist needs to be well versed in a wide variety of pathology, and there is a lot of subtly in the various images. Also, their correct interpretations of the images makes a huge impact on how the patient is treated. Clinicians take the radiologists interpretations and pair that with the clinical presentations to help decide what is the proper treatment for whatever issue you have.

        #133.1 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:10 PM EDT

        hmmm, a lot of responsibility and across a lot of medical specialties. i wonder if the malpractice rates match the reimbursement rates. makes more sense now. thx.

          #133.2 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:06 AM EDT
          Reply

          I've worked around doctors for 20 years - can't say a single one was worth what they are paid. I see a bloated, self-loving narcissistic, overpaid profession (physicians).

          I don't believe they know half of what they should (science/medicine). With nearly $3 Trillion in health care in the U.S. I must say, WE REGULAR CITIZENS (non genius types, a.k.a., not doctors) CANNOT AFFORD THIS MUCH MONEY ANYMORE!

          • 2 votes
          Reply#134 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:56 PM EDT

          Before people criticize physician salaries, they should also factor in that some physicians work about 80 hours per week. A full time doctor is actually doing two full time jobs. In addition, I went in debt $250,000 to pay for my school. After high school, I went to school/residency for 12 years. That is 8 years of no pay and 4 years of poor pay. I've been pooped on, vomited on, spit on, peed on and get blood on myself every week. I've been assaulted more than once. I smell things that no one should have to smell. I put my hands where no one should have to put their hands. We do not get holidays. We work holidays and we don't get paid extra to do it. Our personal lives suffer immensely. I've left parties, dinners, movie theaters, and dates in the middle of them. I get called out of the shower and called away from sex. I work for free all the time because I'm ethically bound to. I get called all night...AND I get to hear people complain all the time that I'm a money grubbing, greedy, and amoral because I think that someone who frequently makes life or death decisions LITERALLY should be paid a great salary. Physicians salaries are inadequate...we should be paid a LOT more.

          • 6 votes
          Reply#135 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:15 PM EDT

          On being a physician.

          The bad.

          1) I have had a real income paying job for only 2 years of my life and I am 36. Started career at this age with no savings. No retirement. $240,00 med school loans (+ college loans).

          2) Started my career with additional $35,000 credit card debt. (Interviews, review courses, traveling expenses for training very expensive).

          3) Spent last 14 years studying my butt off. I missed a good chunk of the fun stuff people in their 20's do.

          4) Have waited to start a family due to financial and time constraints.

          5) Future of medicine is extremely uncertain. My salary this year is already 10% less than last. I am hoping my income doesn't drop too much before I can repay student loans.

          6) I work average 60 hrs/week. I am often late for dinner. I am often on-call and spend the night in the hospital.

          7)Work can be extremely stressful. I am responsible for people's safety and their lives. There is no such thing as a simple surgery. There is no such thing as a standard procedure. Everything we do is risky. It is my job to guide people through that risk safely. I take that extremely seriously.

          8)My care is being dictated more and more by outside forces (medicare and private insurance).

          9) I am scared I won't be there for the important parts of my children's lives.

          The good.

          1)My Job is extremely rewarding. I meet people when they are most vulnerable. The majority of the time, people do well and I can share that with them. (It is stressful and difficult when people don't do well, no matter how well I took care of them).

          2)Medicine can be very intellectually rewarding.

          3)Medicine can be very financially rewarding. I have payed off my credit card debt. I can afford the costly monthly payments on my student loans. (I truly don't have the worries my mother did).

          4)In plain terms, I love what I do. I see people all the time who hate their job (even in my own field). I feel blessed I love mine.

          • 6 votes
          Reply#136 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:27 PM EDT

          I hope you make all the money you ever dreamed plus another 25%.You will earn it.I admire two professions,doctors and police.Both serve,both never make enough!

          • 1 vote
          #136.1 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:03 PM EDT
          Reply

          As a medical student currently pursuing my career in medicine, I would like to point out that by the time I am done I will be close to $300,000 in debt. Tuition plus living expenses is over 60,000 a year (and my medical school is not nearly as expensive as some), not to mention the cost it took me to get to medical school and the interest I will pay while in residency and pursuing the rest of my training. It is impossible to work while in medical school and the level of expense is outlandish. I am pursuing medicine not for the money, but purely for the love of medicine, people, and science. While some specialties are compensated immensely, others are not. We put our lives on hold. All of my friends are getting married and having children. Studying all day every day is a sacrifice. The debt is a sacrifice. The lack of a normal social life with family and friends is a sacrifice. But, its worth it me because I could see myself in no other profession. That being said, I do hold out some level of hope that someday, when I finish all of this training I will be compensated enough to pay off my debt, purchase a house and enjoy what parts of life I have left. Are doctor's overcompensated? Well, I guess I will have to get back to you in a few years...

          • 5 votes
          Reply#137 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:35 PM EDT

          Work for a "Free" clinic, for a couple of years. Most will forgive your loans, and you will make a half way decent income, doing so.. I am your medical assistant helping you out, and we get paid $13.00 an hour. Quit whining!

            #137.1 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:15 AM EDT

            How much educational loan debt to you have, PM? How much training, compared to physicians? And for a lot of docs working at free clinics, the loan repayment isn't through the clinic. It is offered by the National Health Service Corps, and is NOT guaranteed. There is a chance their loans might be repaid in part - the amount isn't enough to discharge all the debt.

            • 1 vote
            #137.2 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:57 AM EDT
            Reply

            If anyone thinks doctor's are overpaid then you try and do it. Most do not have the talent. Most do not have an idea what it takes to be successful and well balanced in this industry. Patients are a priority but the administration of a practice, the insurance companies, the threat of lawsuits, crazy patients, the hospital, the ER, the office, the staff, your partners, your overhead, and the list goes on. Try it on for size then quit your complaining or put up your shingle. This job will be outsourced like many others. Then try seeing an American born doctor to explain your issues to.

            Recent survey of over 2000 physicians--87% admit they are moderately to severely stressed on a daily basis.

            • 2 votes
            Reply#138 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:39 PM EDT

            My wife is a psychologist at a Veterans Hospital in NYC and treats PTSD related cases and other issues associated with our vets. After undergrad, she went to school for over 6 years plus another 2 years of residency programs (read - no pay). We live in one of the most expensive parts of our country. I'll still be paying off her school loans at the same time our oldest daughter goes to college. Our oldest daughter is now 3.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#139 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:40 PM EDT

            Doctor are like police to me! Pay them what they want,they are worth every penny! Eight years of school,years to establish a clientele! That's a lot of work !Police have to deal with the dregs of society and try to remain normal! Both do excellent jobs most of the time and both csn be trusted all the time! Quit complaining untill the amke a machinev to replace both!

            • 1 vote
            Reply#140 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:57 PM EDT

            I have much more respect for MDs than police. The Hippocratic oath "First do no harm..." should be taught to police... but that's another debate for another day.

            • 1 vote
            #140.1 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:20 PM EDT
            Reply

            I'm surprised some of the folks here think Doctors have it easy. They should become Doctors, then! I'm in a typical managerial position and I could study in the evenings to get my premed prerequisites knocked out, then take on debt and go back to school to become a doctor (making the big assumption I had the academic acumen).

            Why don't I? No thanks, I'll get my mba and make almost as much with just 2 more years of school and a great deal less effort, plus no debt.

            But seriously, if you think Doctors have a good deal then go become a Doctor. Or better yet, complain about how much Doctors make when you yourself are unwilling to live the disciplined life it takes to become a MD.

            • 4 votes
            Reply#141 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:10 PM EDT

            My kid's neurologist takes four months off every year, and he is in his 50s. I'd say he's doing pretty good if he only has to work eight months out of twelve. He has an excellent physician's assistant or we would have already moved on.

              Reply#142 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:10 PM EDT

              I have worked in healthcare for over 20 years. Two things:

              If you don't like it, leave.

              If you live beyond your means, that is your problem.

              Other than that, no sympathy here.

                Reply#143 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:16 PM EDT

                My doctor is worth every cent he earns. Great care, understanding, doesn't rush through visits. I thank this man humbly. His practise is in Springhill, TN. I wish he earned a great deal more - he is worth it. There are poor doctors; good doctors; excellent doctors - mine is in the ultimate category.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#144 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:20 PM EDT
                JangoJiiiDeleted

                no anesthesiology in the list, i guess that one is off the charts!

                  Reply#146 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:53 PM EDT

                  no, it's not off the charts...I say that because I'm an anesthesiologist. We are right in the middle of the pack.

                    #146.1 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:31 PM EDT
                    Reply

                    Seems funny that those with such high IQs and being good students, can't grasp the idea of ROI.

                      Reply#147 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:03 PM EDT

                      A list of people I believe are overpaid would include lawyers, pro ball players, actors, some executives, and many welfare recipients.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#148 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:33 PM EDT

                      My husband enlisted in the Army at age 18. He used the GI bill to pay for his undergraduate education. He went to the military medical school (Uniformed Services University). He did three years of residency, three years of fellowship, was deployed to Iraq, did another year of fellowship and will now deploy to Afghanistan.

                      He makes what every other person with his rank and time in service makes. He gets bonuses for being an active duty physician, board certified, with his speciality. We get the exact same housing and living allowances as everyone else in his rank and time in service.

                      So, first, let's not generalize physician's salaries, second- count the years in training here people- 4+3+3+1. 11 YEARS. Two deployments. I don't care if, when he gets out of the military, he makes 10 times what he makes now. He's earned it. When the rest of you spend 11 years after college to do what you do for a living and then go to war (and trust me, we have friends who have deployed four and five times) you get to complain.

                      and guess what his taxable income was last year? $84,000.

                      You are all welcome.

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#149 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:40 PM EDT

                      Hmmm so sad to see the some folks on this discussion turn against people who are there to help you. So many comments that physicians are over paid and full of themselves. The reality is unless you are a physician or close to one most people dont understand how rigorous and long the process is. Just so people can see the painful time line I'll detail it out for you. 4 years undergrad then MCAT (Medical College Admissions Test), 4 years medical school, Step 1 after your 2nd year of medical school, Step 2 in your 4th year of medical school, Step 3 in your 1st or 2nd year of residency. Three to seven years of residency to do anything from internal medicine to neurosurgery then followed by one to three years of fellowship if you choose to do a subspecialty in your field then followed by your written boards for your specialty, possibly an oral boards, then followed by your fellowship boards. So lets see if I were a neurosurgeon that that did a subspecialty that would be 16 years of training which would put me around 37-38 years old, wow I think that guy gets paid too much, anybody could do that job. GI or cardiologists a mere 14 years so these greedy SOBs can start their first real job at 35-36 years old assuming they didnt take any time off. Oh yeah also they get the privilege of paying off 150-250k worth of student loan debt just so when they finally they get into practice they can be told that the $100 bill they submitted to medicare or medicaid they will only get 10 cents on the dollar for that bill for a whopping $10. Be really careful about knocking those who take care of you unless you really dont want the best and the brightest of our kids to go into something as complex and long as this. I mean if you really want to start importing doctors from India whose students go to "medical school" from high school and finish in six years I guess that a "solution?"

                      • 4 votes
                      Reply#150 - Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:40 PM EDT

                      This article is silly: I worked in a "FREE" clinic, in Minneapolis, for 13 years. The doctors that worked there, were forgiven their med school expenses, after 2 years of service, and the base salary is $88,000. The top doc in the organization made $150,000, and that was a 4 day week, no on call, and no hospital rotation. Docs make great money!

                        Reply#151 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:11 AM EDT

                        As an MD, I worked about 120 hours per weekAnd made 16,000 dollars a year of the first 4 years> I then worked 100 hours per week for 16years with my salary peaking at 300,000 dollars per year. I then weaned to 84 hours per week for the remainder of my career with take home pay my last year 86,000 dollars. The average per year, counting a week as 40 hours, is about 36,000 dollars per year worked.Through military education and training my wife and I were below the poverty level. I have fought through 2 brain surgeries, 2 cancer surgeries, 4 back surgeries, bilateral rotator cuff repairs, and bilateral ear surgeries. My family was not rich and we raised three children during the poor years. Lucky doctors? Give me a break. Guess who is really being screwed: the poor, elderly, disabled, and people who paid insurance out of pocket.

                        • 3 votes
                        Reply#152 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:33 AM EDT

                        I went to college and got my CPA. The hours are long and the work is mentally difficult but I've never made more than $76,000 a year. They should be thankful to be making 6-figures and no wonder why they complain about my modest fees.

                          Reply#153 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:53 AM EDT

                          @Gen-x-CPA; That REQUIRES NO brains

                            #153.1 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:34 AM EDT

                            Really? I beg to differ. To be a CPA requires an enormous volume of knowledge, a lot of it (20% I think) is tax and business law.

                            I could have taken a few more classes (Auditing and Advanced Accounting) and gotten a degree in Accounting, and after review classes probably passed the CPA, but I chose computer programming as a field instead because I find it more interesting.

                              #153.2 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:55 AM EDT
                              Reply

                              Of course they don`t perceive themselves as rich. They compare themselves to the CEOs of the hospitals and insurance companies.....and relatively speaking they are not in those leaques. They don`t look beneath them......at the majority of Americans. From the majorities perspective....they may not be filthy rich but they are certainly rich enough.

                                Reply#154 - Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:51 AM EDT
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