Speaking of working for it... Lets look at what the execs are making at health insurance companies!! Education for most execs is an MBA.

Couldn't find anything newer than 2008.

Also this is JUST the CEO's. Most of these companies have quite a few top executives making a million dollars plus salaries! This is where YOUR healthcare dollar is going!

Ins. Co. & CEO With 2008 Total CEO Compensation

Aetna, Ronald A. Williams: $24,300,112

Cigna, H. Edward Hanway: $12,236,740

Coventry, Dale Wolf: $9,047,469

Health Net, Jay Gellert: $4,425,355

Humana, Michael McCallister: $4,764,309.

Health Group, Stephen J. Hemsley: $3,241,042

Wellpoint, Angela Braly: $9,844,212

In 2008 Aetna's CEO made $38.2 Million, that's a nice raise.

2008

Welcare's CEO: $8.1 Million

United's CEO: $6.53 Million

Amerigroup's CEO: $5.3 Million

American Socialist - Add a million dollars of debt to that $150K, missing family events, and being available 24/7. Most doctors I know live well within their means.

Seriously, few people actually want to be a medical practitioner of any kind.

Who wants to have to deal with touching other people, or cutting them open, or clearing their blocked colons, etc...

It is certainly not the easiest job in the world and the hours and effort required to obtain a medical education make it an even less attractive way to spend ones entire professional life.

CEO - ON THE OTHER HAND, hell that's even easier than being a Kardashian. ;)

American socialist - net take home on that is no where near $12,500 a month. Add in hefty payments for malpractice insurance and it's even less. And these are the people who save our lives - they should be paid in accordance with the severity of their job.

PH-3046605

American socialist - net take home on that is no where near $12,500 a month. Add in hefty payments for malpractice insurance and it's even less

last time I checked, malpractice insurance is completely deductible

....nice try for sympathy, though

As an electronicsa engineer I was making more than what the average doctor took home. As above, there are a ton of costs associated with being a doctor, none with being an engineer.

Like all deductions, there are stipulations and it certainly doesn't cover total expenses paid out. Further, the level of insurance some of these doctors need to pay for requires additional financial planning and accounting support, so you can add that expense in too.

I'm not a doctor, so I'm not trying for sympathy. I am thankful though for doctors as I would have died a few years back if they didn't remove my appendix right away. I certainly don't begrudge them their paycheck because I am not bitter about successful people making money and I am smart enough to know that a 150k salary for a doctor is NOT what is breaking the healthcare system.

ChinaMatt,

You said, "Seriously, few people actually want to be a medical practitioner of any kind." Really? More people are trying to get into medical schools then there are slots. Way more. On what basis do you say few want to be in these professions?

I hear all about doctors living within means. The same people complain about how healthcare is so important that it should be universal for everyone. Yet few comments from those same people about others who make 10-20X as much with less training and education should live within their means. last I heard, coaches are not so important that the federal gov must dictate that everyone should have access to their services. What about socialism for others as well, or should it just be socialism for select groups?

Another List for You.. Top Paid College Football Coaches

Salary in Millions

5.17, Nick Saban, Alabama, 15, two national championships
5.10, Mack Brown, Texas, 26, one national championship
4.53, Bob Stoops, Oklahoma, 12, one national championship
4.00, Lane Kiffin, USC, 2, 15-11 career record
3.78, Kirk Ferentz, Iowa, 12, four top-10 seasons
3.75, Les Miles, LSU, 10, one national championship
3.65, Jim Tressel, Ohio State, 10, one national championship
3.56, Bobby Petrino, Arkansas, 7, two top-10 seasons
2.94, Jim Grobe, Wake Forest, 16, one ACC championship
2.81, Mark Richt, Georgia, 10, six top-10 seasons
2.80, Steve Spurrier, S. Carolina, 21, one national championship
2.80, Chip Kelly, Oregon, 2, BCS title game appearance
2.78, Bo Pelini, Nebraska, 3, two Big 12 title game appearances
2.75, Jimbo Fisher, Florida St., 1, one ACC title game appearance
2.75, Will Muschamp, Florida, 0,
2.55, Gary Pinkel, Missouri, 20, one top-5 season
2.50, Bret Bielema, Wisconsin, 5, two top-10 seasons
2.50, Houston Nutt, Mississippi, 14, two SEC title game appearances
2.44, Paul Johnson, Georgia Tech, 9, one ACC championship
2.30, Jeff Tedford, California, 9, one top-10 season

I have another list, that show Doctors ane in the wrong field.

National Education Association

Has 31 headquarters officers and employees who earn more than $200,000 in pay and benefits. The president, Dennis Van Roekel, received $397,721 in salary and benefits.

Service Employees International Union.

The union has nine headquarters officers and employees who earn more than $200,000. The former president, Andy Stern, was paid $306,388

United Food & Commercial Workers.

Has 17 headquarters officers and employees who earn more than $200,000. The president, Joseph T. Hansen, received $360,737 in compensation

International Brotherhood of Teamsters:

Eight headquarters officers and employees received more than $200,000 in 2009. The president, James P. Hoffa, was compensated $364,869

American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees

At union headquarters in Washington, 10 officers and employees receive more than $200,000 a year. McEntee was paid $479,328 in salary and benefits

Laborers' International Union of North America.

The headquarters in Washington has 17 officers and employees who earn more than $200,000 a year, including 10 who earn more than $300,000. Terence O'Sullivan, union president since 2000, received $618,000 in salary and benefits

Not so long ago if you got sick, you went to the doctor and for his/her service you gave him/her some money or a chicken or a duck or what ever you had to offer. Who ever thought placing hundreds of empoyees and over paid CEOs between the doctor and your duck should be shot.

robb,

Deductible simply means you don't have to pay taxes on that amount. You still have to pay it! Just like your mortgage interest on your home. You still have to pay it but it gets deducted from your taxable income. ie.150,000 income less 25,000 malpractice insurance means they would pay taxes on 125,000 instead of 150,000.

Sports in general is just out of wack. Heck, the Chicago Cubs practice in Mesa AZ and are getting a new complex built, and they needed tax payers to help them.

An orginazation that pays people millions upon millions of dollars to hit a white ball around needed "our" taxpay dollars to pay for their new building.

How F'd up is that?

Why do you all, and the media, worry so much about what other people earn? It's none of your damned business!

I think this article was incomplete.

How about comparing health care institution \ doctors to health insurance companies \ salesman.

Don't forget about overhead.

Maybe even include pharmaceutical companies.

Yeah I know, why don't i do it? Want me to be your doctor? It isn't my area of expertise. :)~

How about professional rabble rousers.

The Center for Public Integrity found compensation for leaders of the 10 largest unions ranged from $173,000 at the United Auto Workers to $618,000 at the Laborers' International Union of North America, and almost $480,000 for the president of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees

Hey OSKAR - would you also publish a list of the CEO's salaries for the companies where those union's workers are employed??? Just what point are you trying to make - Many of those union officials would be making a lot more if they held executive positions in corporations.

As an electronicsa engineer I was making more than what the average doctor took home. As above, there are a ton of costs associated with being a doctor, none with being an engineer.

I am still an electronics engineer and I'm not making anywhere near what these doctors reported.

Median income for 2009 was about $60k. Doctors are doing pretty damned good, malpractice insurance or not!

Why do you compare their income to the elite of the overpaid in CEOs and Sports figures? Try comparing them with the other 95%

ULDog.

This article is not about CEO's , sorry .

Mikey

I would say "let's look at your sports hero's" , but then I think you know that your post pales in comparison as to who is "stealing" peoples money

oskar

"This article is not about CEO's , sorry ." , right , but you just saw the typical liberal response to any topic , change it , distort it , lie about it , and blame someone else , did you "take the red pill" to see the libmatrix ?

hehe

Why stop with overpaid CEO's and sports figures?? Look at movie stars, rock stars, look at Oprah. Look at just about anyone in entertainment. Hell Ryan Seacrest just signed a $30m deal.

Americans clearly value entertainment over health. Our dollars do the talking. I think it's a valid concern. We complain when we have to pay to stay healthy but no problems shelling out $50 en mass for nosebleeds at the stadium, or $20 to see the summer blockbuster. America's priorities are so out-of-whack it's sad....

Cry babies...The economy took my job, I now have a degree that is not worth the paper it's written on...I'm living on less than $15,000 a year, no health care, no 401K, I'm making the best of what I have, it may not be much but I'm not homeless...My heart bleeds for them really, truly it does...NOT!

Doctors make enough to get trophy wives. Just an observation, not a complaint.

As an engineer I have done well enough myself.

Oskar, You are correct! this article is not about CEO pay, but why then are you listing the top positions of all of these Unions (CEO's). If you want to make a comparable then do some research and provide the average pay of the Union staff that would compare to a typical professional medical position. These would be the thousands of staff members working under the guidance of the Union Bosses (CEO's). I would bet these would be well less than a six figure salary. Under your assumption, these union bosses are not getting nearly the pay they should be.

chris,

Im not going to bother quoting you, but will respond by your same numbering system

1. Physicians often incorporate their practices. This is not illegal, and applying a term like "laundering" is misleading and false

2. this is nonsense, and thus no response is possible

3. Wrong. It takes longer to practice medicine, on average. A phd requires on average, 6 years after college...a MD PLUS residency (necessary to practice) is at LEAST 7

4. 50K...hardly shocking...works out to about 8 bucks an hour....are you stunned yet?

5. They still carry upwards of 200K of student loans before thinking about private practice...your point is moot

6. False.

Your last paragraph is nonsense. the ability of drs has very little to do with health outcomes, which is determined far more by the overall health of the population to begin with. Trust me, its not hard to keep a bunch of thin swedes healthy...try the same with the average obese american. As far as leading the world in malpractice, thats CLAIMS, which as we are one of the only countries who do not penalize plantiffs for filing frivilous claims, is hardly suprising

Union bosses are paid directly from the money they take from members, who do the actual work.

Corporations have investors and sell products other people buy. Are their salaries inflated? Hell yes, however it is far more justified than union compensation.

Lets keep our eye on the prize. We wont have to worry about much other than this real soon....

Unless Congress acts to soften the blow, economists are warning that a looming year-end collision of massive, “automatic” cuts in federal spending and the expiration of sweeping Bush-era tax cuts could crush an already weak U.S. economic recovery

Remember that can they keep on kicking down the road? Time to kick it again, and the can is disintegrating. The real pain is coming with a vengeance!

Am I bias? Sure aren't we all?

The focus needs to be on revitalizing the flow of the damn economy not condemning but simply educating. It is a country of people whether they are workers, fatcats, etc. But without a flowing economy and a potential collapse all could be lost. I think we could see in the next coming years states printing their own currency once again.

I still think the banks out grew the economic base therefore the bank bailouts only made it worse, the fix was temporary at best. Don't confuse this with the automotive bailout which I do think was largely successful in terms of helping economic flow. However I was against any bailouts.

I think (which probably doesn't matter much) :) If American companies stepped it up increased worker pay than taxes and entitlements would go down. Anyways

Chris.. Then become a doctor! You can work with poor patients to provide accurate diagnoses and excellent healthcare! I promise it is badly needed!

You'll find that the pay is much less and hours much than you think and insurance is horrible when it comes to work with the poor, BUT you will find that work with poor patients is emotionally rewarding and one of the best jobs you'll ever have!

Heck, even if you don't become a doctor you should volunteer at a free clinic or public hospital. They badly need volunteers!

Add about 200k worth of student debt while working chump change for 3-7 yrs of residency after medical school. Also add the cost of high malpractice insurance. That average salary doesn't look attractive now.

chris, I am reposting another's post from further in the thread because i don't want you to miss it...

@Chris-749391

You're completely and totally wrong about Doctors not being on the same level in training and education as those with Ph.D's. Take it from someone who's dating a doctor and who's currently receiving a Ph.D. Where do you get your facts from? How could you possibly think that it takes longer and more training to receive a Ph.D. than it does an M.D. or D.O? All told, it'll take me 5 years post bachelor's to recieve my Ph.D. My girlfriend did medical school in 4 years, what is, of course, required. However, just because she finished med school doesn't mean she's done training, it'll still take an additional 3 years of residency (including 16 hour days, 6 days a week, for weeks at a time) before she's fully licensed. Yes, she's getting paid as a resident, but absolutely no where near what you think, and when you factor in that most weeks she's working 90+ hours, her hourly rate blows. Most docs do make 40-50k starting out as residents, but add in the fact that they have 6-figure debt and are paying $1,000+ a month for student loans, and you realize it's definitely not for the money. If that's what you consider "a shocking amount" I'd had to wonder what you think they should be paid.

As a Ph.D. student, I'm fortunate enough to be in a field that compensates me while I'm in school. Granted, I could work at the mall and make more money then I do as a Ph.D. student, and I have to teach, but it's absolutely amazing to be able to be paid while going to school. Doctors certainly can't say the same as they shell out a ton of cash to get their degrees.

Doctors deserve every bit of what they're compensated for; if you want to look to where the health care dollars are going, try looking elsewhere. You should really do some research rather than spouting off "facts" that do nothing except clearly show your inferiority complex.

robopaloopbop, in one state I know, doctors are paying 100,000 a year for malpractise insurance. So it may be deductible but you still have to pay it. On top of that a lot of doctors come out of school and owe 300,000 to 500,000 in student loans that they have to pay off. And when they first get out of medical school they don't make very much initially when they do their residency. So that's why doctor's in private practise have to charge so much. Kaiser Permanente seems to be making good money--every time I look they're building a new building. Don't think their doctors make as much as those in private practise. However, regardless of where you go to, those of us who can pay have to pay more to make up for those who can't pay. So you can say it's a tax on those of us who can pay to support those of us who can't pay. It pisses me off but what can you do? The only option you have is to not go to the doctor or go to a foreign country to have a procedure done. At least doctors are doing something worthwhile, unlike talk show hosts, kardasians, and worst of all, CEO's. Anyone cando those jobs.

"

last time I checked, malpractice insurance is completely deductible

....nice try for sympathy, though"

And I'm sure its paid by the "Practice" and not out of their take home pay.

Doctors are "the practice" They pay everything before they take home pay. Deductible or not it still comes out of revenue.

Doctors put in a lot of hours at the hospitals too, but why are radiologists paid so much more?

The numbers in the article are volunteered and BS. A lot of them don't really know how much they really make.

A private practice non-specialized will make about $150,000 clear.

The trend is to be hired by a hospital who pays them a salary and the liability insurance. They will get at least $150,000 to $400,000 before taxes. If they moonlite or work as a consultant they can get more. My info comes from actual tax returns.

Its awesome we have the doctors on our side now to protest this corporate take;over.

3) Physicians do not have equivalent coursework, training, or education to a PhD. In fact, it takes about twice as long to obtain a usable PhD as it does to practice medicine.

Not exactly true. I'm almost done with my 2nd year of medical school (I'm done with classes - I just had my last final exam yesterday. I am now finishing studying for Step 1 boards until the end of June). The first two years of preclinical education is 40 - 50 credit hours a semester. Years 3 and 4 are clinical rotations - where we'll pay to work 40 - 80 hours a week, be on call for some of the rotations, etc., etc. My school requires 11 rotations a year - each rotation is 10 credit hours. At the end of 3rd year, we'll take our Step 2 boards, and because I'm going to be a DO, I'll also take a PE board exam (MD's don't have to take this - but, this is where we all go to Philadelphia and spend 8 hours seeing 'standardized' patients as if we were in a clinical setting and the attending physician). By the time we graduate we've done a lot of work - it is different work than a PhD student does - but, it is the equivalent in training.

Then after we graduate, we aren't done - nor are we fully licensed to practice independently. We then do a residency that lasts 3+ years. For DO's, all of our residencies are 4 years or more (unless the residency has approval from the AOA to make do a 3 year residency, eliminating the intern year - and this can only be approved if the residency has rotations in a variety of areas, not just the area the resident is doing their residency in). During our residency, we will take Step 3 boards - upon successful completion of the Step 3, we can be licensed to independently practice. However, we can't sit for our board certification until we have completed, or are very near completion, of our residency.

In all - a physician has gone through medical school, and residency totaling at least 7 years. Before they are considered done with their education. Then, if you want to do a fellowship, that's another 2 - 3 years of training.

I am planning on going into ob/gyn and then doing a fellowship in maternal fetal medicine. I also opted to extend my medical school by 1 year by doing a year of research between my 1st and 2nd years of medical school. So, this means I will have done 5 years of medical school, a 4 year residency and then a 2 year fellowship - for a total of 9 years of education beyond my undergraduate program that I completed in 4 years.

My ENT physician told me that he didn't "make as much as people think," just before he removed a few sinus polyps for which service he charged $23,000.00.

The local MD with whom he had done his residency described him as "mediocre." What would he earn if he could be described in more glowing terms?

Guys like 'Summer' aren't even in practice yet and they're already 'banging the drum' and adding to the propaganda mill.

It's amazing to me how any one can think that doctors are appropriately compensated, do you know of any other profession where the government dictates what you will be paid regardless of what you bill? Yet Insurance executives get paid millions!! Really? Physicians are not allowed to make mistakes or they get sued they have to pay high malpractice premiums, yet the insurance executives who think they know how to practice medicine are the ones dictating how the physicians should practice medicine. They are the ones deciding what's medically necessary. I have been in the medical field for over 20 years trust me it takes alot to run a medical practice they have high overhead every day insurance companies continue to make changes as an excuse to not pay the physicians for their work. Medicare barely even covers medical supplies needed to treat patients. Now the government want the physicians to get on electronic medical records yet they do not provide any funding nor resources to pay for it. I am NOT a physician but I can tell you this they do not make enough money for all the crap they have to put up with. They have no union and no one to fight for them. It seems to me that union workers at GM make more money then most physicians. Us as the consumers need to wake up the insurance companies are making all the money they cut doctor reimbursements yet increase our health insurance premiums and the top executives take home a fat bonus. WAKE PEOPLE!!

ercillor

not all of the 23k goes to the dr. Do you think the or staff, nurses, and janitors all work for free? Come on, i shouldn't have to tell you that

Also, its clear summer is female. And she's not "banging" any drum, shes responding accurately and honestly to an earlier poster. What do you want her to do?

Guys like 'Summer' aren't even in practice yet and they're already 'banging the drum' and adding to the propaganda mill.

First of all, I'm a woman - not a guy. Secondly, all I was saying is that medical school IS the equivalent of a PhD - but, it is different. I'm not sure how that's "banging the drum" and adding to the propaganda mill. It's just a fact that medical school is a lot of work and when you consider everything that goes into becoming licensed, does take as many years (and often more years) than obtaining a PhD.

Though my brain must be fried from my 8 hour exam I had today (the 6th exam I've had in 8 days) - I will actually have 11 years of training beyond undergrad when I'm done.

Also, its clear summer is female. And she's not "banging" any drum, shes responding accurately and honestly to an earlier poster. What do you want her to do?

Thank you eric.

To all those complaining about being overcharged by a physician. Did it ever occur to get the price of services up front? It sounds like a simple "what will this procedure cost?" could have saved you all a lot of money. If you don't like the price, shop around.

As for the earlier comment about PhD's receiving more training. It's like this. A PhD will know 1000 things about one subject; an MD will know one thing about 1000 subjects. Also, I have seen MD's allowed to do research, but I have never seen a PhD allowed to practice medicine. To each their own.

" just before he removed a few sinus polyps for which service he charged $23,000.00."

you could have gone to Mexico and gotten the same procedure for 200 bucks and burro , you could have done it yourself with an exacto knife and broken piece of glass , whiner

how much would you have sued him for if there were some kind of issue? , we known , no need to respond

Just wanted to point out that not all PhD's are in a program that pays or compensates them well (sometimes they have no funding and must work their way through or forced to drop out) and not all of them are fortunate enough to complete the degree in 5 years post undergraduate. Some PhD's work very hard to complete their dissertation and graduate after many long years 6+. I personally know of one who finished in 7 years and another in 8 and one who completed the degree after 9 years. All had to take out loans and will be in extremely high debt. They will have post doc jobs which pay less than what a medical residents makes. PhD's train hard and must pass rigorous courses and exams and produce original research, abstracts, and publications. If one is in a great lab and/or has a supportive mentor then the PhD can have an excellent experience. Otherwise earning the PhD can be a test in hell. Medical school is a much more structured and financially secure education. There are many PhDs who end up applying to medical school and becoming MDs themselves for this reason. I'm in no way attempting to knock medicine here. It's a great field and I believe those who can go to medical school are fortunate. It's not just the job and financial security MDs have. The field garners a great deal of respect in society and holds career options other jobs do not have. While MDs may accrue large school debt, rest assured they will earn enough income to pay it and still enjoy a very very financially secure lifestyle. Also the MD brings great humanistic reward when you successfully treat a patient (and they are thankful) whereas a PhD can spend many frustrating years in research with no immediate rewards for their work which often can contribute to the advancement of medicine itself. I think the MD is a great degree; so is the PhD (if this is what one wants). Just pointing out they are very different training programs.

Intern1: You're right - both a PhD and a medical degree are strenuous programs. I hope I didn't make it sound like a PhD was not difficult - that was certainly NOT what I was intending. They are very different programs - both are strenuous and both take a lot of work and dedication. I just get tired of some people trying to down play the medical degree as if it's less than a PhD.

Doctors are perhaps our most important asset as a country and yet people on this board are pissing and moaning that they make $300K annually when at the same time corporate executives rake in tens of millions, sports stars, actors, musicians, politicians, artists, or anyone that opens a cookie stand can make a fortune. Doctors, you know the one's you go to when you want your life saved, are begrudged for making a fraction of what so many other professions demand. This is lunacy in my opinion.

From first hand knowledge I can tell you that doctors do things that would astound you and without question would gain your respect - if you spent a month following one. Emergency Doctors have to put Humpty Dumpty back together again and save your kid when they are in a car accident. They work long tedious and extremely stressful hours and hold lives in their hands all day long. Surgeons fix your heart so you don't die... the list is extensive of all the things doctors do to save lives everyday in every town.

I personally think doctors don't get paid nearly enough for what they do and my vote is to cut out the middle man and shift some of that money back into compensating doctors. If we don't do that the doctors of the future will be more poorly trained and less competent - I can't imagine anyone wants that.

So I can go out and get my MBA and make 30, 40, or 50 million per year? It's just that easy? No. They make that much becasue they are connected with their cronies on the board of directors. They alone are not responsible for the great perfomance of the company that rewards them - some of those middle managers and those on the front lines are entitled to some of that credit but rarely get it, besides a cheap letter in the email box. What man is worth almost $400 million in executive compensation for one year of service (Apple)?

Funny, a lot of doctors whine about the cost of malpractice insurance, but they sure aren't driving Kias. The smart ones declared bankruptcy when they could right out of med school. It wiped out the student loan debt because they didn't have much to lose. After that, it's all cash. Can't do that anymore, but it sure did screw the rest of the people who need a second chance through bankruptcy. They changed the laws to make it harder since the docs (and lawyers) screwed the gov't. I've never met a poor doctor in the USA.

Irrespective of the profession, or work field that one is in, the big bucks always speed up to the top!

Hey Oskar, it's not about labor leaders either, but that didn't stop you from printing your list! Typical neo-con reponses! Anyway you could have at least included this guy!

Thomas Donahue - President National Chamber of Commerce - salary - $3.7 million

Once again it seems that business leaders are paying the leader of their union even more than big labor!

Summer 159713

I was just making a general comment regarding the PhD and that it can be a difficult training program and was not in response to your comment. I've never thought that the MD was less difficult. It is a rigorous clinical degree while the PhD is a basic science degree (if you're one in laboratory research publishing original research). They're different training programs. Good luck to you!

Intern1: I know you don't think an MD is less difficult. I agree with you that they are different - but equally difficult degrees. Thanks for the good luck wishes :)

Considering the years of training, the continued education, the horrible long hours, the degree of responsibility, and the difficulty of the job I consider most physicians to be underpaid. It really does depend on your specialty though. I know EP doctors that make millions a year. That's a bit much.

I wonder where they got the doctors for this survey? Appalachia?
An acquaintance of mine has a daughter married to a radiologist and he earns over 1m a year in a midwest city. This report is total bs and I'm wondering what they are excluding from their "income". In California, judging by the rents on the offices they have in La Jolla and the cars they drive, no way in heck do they earn 200-300k. Are they deducting their medical education off their salary? Are they ignoring the profits their medical consortiums make?
I often think when they do a procedure with some new piece of equipment, what the medical engineer earned when he invented the tool they are using? Nowhere close to what they earn! They are NOT hard up!

With the hours my Dr works, none of these dollar figures are enough for me to want to do it. $200K - 35% taxes ($8500 standard deductible), that comes to around $140K. State income taxes piled on top of that, let's just be conservative and say that only lowers it to $125K or $2,400 per week. Figure in 80 hour work weeks, that's $30/hr. Would you give up your family time and social life for $30/hr? I can make more than that contracting with computers.

An acquaintance of mine has a daughter married to a radiologist and he earns over 1m a year in a midwest city

Yeah...and my nephew's brothers cousins neighbors friend knows a part time doc that makes eleventy gillion dollars a day.

Made up people with made up salaries. Anecdotes are useless because they either don't reperesnt the norm, or are plain out false.

...medical consortiums...

What the hell is a medical consortium? Sounds like the bad guy in a james bond movie

This is a typical discussion with a majority of people commenting on the daily lives, financial breakdowns and all other crap of people in a profession that they know nothing about. This argument has been going on for so long, with everyone always whining about what doctors make. I'm a resident and I beg those of you who thinks its large incomes and fast cars that drive us to do this. If that were the case I'd have left this career path a long time ago. Every day since the beginning of medical school, we have to learn and retain thousands upon thousand facts,numbers,details,patterns and so on. Then we go to residency and into practice and apply all that as well as gain experience which is of utmost importance. Every single patient, every single day requires absolute determination to find out whats wrong with them and figure out how to improve that. On top of that, garbage lawyers try to prey on the weak by telling them to try and sue us for anything under the sun. Just being named in a suit regardless of the outcome, increases odds of malpractice insurance fees going up and can hurt your job potentials. Those who keep saying malpractice is "deductible" is correct but understands about as much about that term as when Kramer used it in Seinfeld.

Most of us have 300k in debt, and make ~45-50k a year for working a ton of hours a week. That debt comes to over 500k by the time we can pay it off because of interest. Other countries pay for people to go to medical school.

Its easy for news mongers to try and drum up controversy by magnifying certain parts of surveys and data, which obviously works here. It causes everyone to start comparing what other professionals make what, and who deserves what. Everyone who works (mothers even more than others) deserve millions of dollars or whatever you feel is appropriate for yourself. But that's not reality and there's a lot of inequality such as the examples above with CEO's and celebrities and such. Bottom line, if you are so unhappy with your job/status so much, get off the internet and try to make whatever changes you need. Quit hating on others for what they do, when you have no clue as to what it takes and what all is involved to become a doctor and to practice well as one. I hope that when you seek medical care, you don't go in with that kind of skepticism/cynacism because we don't see our patients that way.

Eric257
Sorry, can't name the guy but he exists. A consortium is a group of doctors that put together a practice called "something lasix eye surgery" or "something cosmetic center", That's WHAT THE HECK A CONSORTIUM IS? Up to speed now now Eric?

Sorry, can't name the guy but he exists

an anecdote is not proof. Do you realize that a sample size of 1 is not sufficient to draw conclusions?

A consortium is a group of doctors that put together a practice called "something lasix eye surgery" or "something cosmetic center

Hahhahah...I see..."something, something eye center" Yeah, im completely up to speed now. the funniest thing is you actually think that passes for an explanation...

Heres a suggestion for you: provide some stats--some citation of the percentage of doctors that are involved in these organizations, and a detailing of the income they provide

I really shouldn't have to tell you that....

PH-3046605

And these are the people who save our lives - they should be paid in accordance with the severity of their job.

Then how about upping the Military pay, you know the ones that risk dying to save you?

I am not saying doctors do not earn their pay, but really they are well compensated.

Then how about upping the Military pay

While I have the utmost respect for the military, you can enter with a high school education, which is in sharp contrast to physicians. In addition, its a government job, which often pays less. I know for a fact a cardiologist at the VA averages less than 150K a year--that's less than half of the private sector

Eric I did my internship at the VA. They were the absolute worst doctors and they are not held to the same standard as civillian doctors. If they were any good, they would not be VA doctors. In the VA, if a doctor misdiagnoses you, there is no legal recourse.

I think the VA should be closed and the money go towards Universal Healthcare. The vets will get better care, the doctors will be held to a higher standard and we would all be the better for it.

Eric I did my internship at the VA. They were the absolute worst doctors and they are not held to the same standard as civillian doctors. If they were any good, they would not be VA doctors. In the VA, if a doctor misdiagnoses you, there is no legal recourse.

I partially agree...some docs go to the VA because no one in the private sector will hire them. Others do it because they themselves have a military background, or feel some strong connection to the armed forces.

Either way, I think a lot of what makes the VA dysfunctional is the bureaurocracy and byzantine rules of that place. The paperwork is oppressive, and the regulations overly burdensome. It basically prevents docs from practicing medicine

I did many of my rotations in medical school, internship, residency, and fellowship at various VAs so I have some experience with this

I think the VA should be closed and the money go towards Universal Healthcare. The vets will get better care, the doctors will be held to a higher standard and we would all be the better for it.

I think that suggestion is rather humorous as the VA is a model of government run health care...Specifically, your complaint about "no legal recourse" is the standard in other socialized or universal coverage systems

Oskar 1.12

Gee, it seems all those union bosses are members of that despised 1%. Who would have thought?

It looks like we have a gaggle of socialist posters that are all too happy to express their indignation over other people's compensation. What else can we expect from these unwashed losers? Do they want to be the arbitors of who should make what?

these salaries are pretty accurate

neurosurg is one of the higher paying specialties...you can def get offers for 500K, but probably only in rural areas.

These numbers are petty close. Yes there are some neurosurgeons, plastic surgeons, etc who make much more but overall these numbers are pretty accurate, especially for private practice.

For quite a few practitioners these numbers may even be quite high because they are averages. One must remember that in private practice you must pay expenses and fight with insurance reimbursements before you get paid.

Add a secretary or two, plus a couple of nurses, malpractice, equipment, etc. and it's not cheap to run a private practice.

This is accurate. A lot docs I know cannot buy a home because of the 250-500K in debt and malpractice insurance, in addition to actually starting a real job in their mid-late 30's. Given the amount of call they have to take and need for extra childcare because of the erratic hours of most doctors, it's a rude awakening to anyone who went into medicine for the income.

Education is free in Europe. Big difference.

Trust me, you want someone who is smart and motivated to be making life and death decisions. If doctors keep getting paycuts you'll see medicine not be a competitive field and then the bottom of the intellectual pile will be trying to remember how to save a life at 3am...and fail.

Insurance company reimbursement has a huge impact of their pay. My wife is a pediatrician and a partner in the clinic she works for. Insurance companies welsh on about 40% of the charges for no reason other than it being the easiest way for them to retain the premiums for their profit. It would cost about as much as the practice could recover if they invested in the resources to recover the denied claims.

Now the insurance companies are convincing the doctors through scare tactics that the Affordable Health Care law will crush their income due to the change in ACO. Its a long con and its working on them. Considering how much the Ins Co will have to pay out in loss as a % of premiums should first off push her practices health care costs for their employees down by double digit % over the next few years. Also, there are now 17 million children covered by insurance that lacked it. New customers. Also, the insured individuals can now challenge denied claims, increasing the conversion rate of payment from 60% to maybe as high as 80% over the next few years. IMO, she will most likely see a net/net wash.

What her and her colleagues need to do is fight for the repeal of the McCarran-Ferguson Act and break up the Ins Co cartels. If the individual families could shop for health care insurance similar to how you can shop auto insurance, including the ability to change providers any time during the policy period, then doctors would have even less trouble earning the income that they deserve for the work they put into their education and career.

Keri68, you mentioned Neurosurgery. I read the article just yesterday and can assure you nowhere in the article was neurosurgery polled. I think one of the misconceptions is that physicians begin making alot of $$ right out of med school. think about this: 4 yrs undergrad (avg US debt $23K) + 4 yrs of med school (avg US debt $156,456...my school tuition alone is $41K/year!) = approx. $180K. Average salary for residents is $43,266/yr. working 80 hours/week first year, then unlimited hours each year after that. Perspective: for the first year, a resident makes about $5/hour. the whole time, your loans for school are accumulating interest. Only after residency will you begin to see some sort of a paycheck that will have some money in it to pay back loans, etc...So, when a doctor drives a BMW or has a boat, keep in mind that it might be the one thing he/she decided to buyt for themselves for a reward of actually attaining a goal and fulfilling their dream. IF you still think it is unfair for the Dr's to make this salary, I invite you to apply to med school and walk that path and then re-evaluate your stance.

There are a lot of myths floating around here. Doctors can't buy houses? Maybe some, but the overwhelming majority yes. No one wants to be a doctor? BS!!! Doctors are ready to leave the profession? And what will they do where they can earn as much money. Malpractice Insurance eats all their income? Sometimes the practice or the hospital pays the malpractice insurance.

I don't begrudge doctors making a good income. My experience is they have trained hard and they work hard in their profession. But they are well compensated. U.S doctors make considerably more than doctors in other developed countries.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/

And their salaries put them in the top 10% of incomes. Since this "study" was not a random sample, I think the figures presented were low.

tom,
in what way was it not random?

tom, My husband is a physician and he is also "the practice". All expenses, like malpractice, billing expenses, health care, paper clips, etc are paid by him. He has to earn every dollar to provide these things. I you are employed and someone else pays your malpractice you will receive a much smaller "wage" and they keep your profits.

My daughter just graduated from medical school with $208,000 in debt. (this is after we helped her pay for some of the medical school and all of her undergrad schooling) She works 12-18 hours a day (even though this is now against the rules) and is generally exhausted.

The physician lifestyle is very busy and demanding. You basically lose the decade of your twenties for your training, so yes the compensation should be good. I do not think we are rich by any means. but we certainly earn a good living which comes at a big price. My husband misses a lot of the family activities and works a lot of hours.

Well I work in healthcare too and those numbers sound about right. You chosed a highest paying specialty in medicine buddy and not everyone makes that salary. Level 1 trauma centers are usually hire high paying neurosurgeons. Also they have very high malpractice insurance.

Why do you assume malpractice insurance comes out of their salary?

where else would it come out of?

Not every doctor works for a large practice or hospital that pays for malpractice insurance. And even in some of those large group practices, individual malpractice is not covered.

So true. My sister in law is a Neurologist, and her husband is an Allergist/Pulmonologist-they do okay, but NOTHING like the doctors I know here in the U.S..

Those doctors also don't have to pay $250K for med school with interest that adds up to a million dollars. They can see a smaller number of patients a day, not have insurance companies repeatedly reject claims, and not have to worry about the massive malpractice insurance costs. Oh and individuals in those countries pay from 50 to 75% of income taxes, which pays for their medical care.

Doctors pay MBA business consultants to come in, evaluate their practice and teach them how to squeeze every last dollar out of each patient. The result has made doctors order a lot of unnecessary tests, kind of a "do you want fries with that" mentality. This has become their primary focus and the biggest reason as to why doctors can not diagnose anymore. They are too focused on sales. You may need to see three or more doctors in order to finally get diagnosed your doctor is too focused on trying to squeeze every last dollar out of you. It is my experience that they will withhold diagnosing you until you agree to about $5000 worth of tests. Then maybe if you scream loud enough, you will get the surgery you need before you bleed to death.

marin,

i've never known any dr to pay an MBA to consult. Docs do not get money for ordering tests...that's a common misconception

yes Marin, most doctors try to diagnose and help patients. This is why they went into the profession. YOu have a very negative perception of doctors that I believe overall is wrong.
There are a few docs like you describe, only interested in money, but certainly not very many.

marinmom

Doctors pay MBA business consultants to come in, evaluate their practice and teach them how to squeeze every last dollar out of each patient. The result has made doctors order a lot of unnecessary tests, kind of a "do you want fries with that" mentality.

You might want to redirect your anger to lawyers and patients with get rich mentality. Looking for any mistake to sue everyone. You see them all over tv commericals. Doctors have no choice but to use defensive treatment. Use of labs, xrays, mri, ct..... unnecessary tests to protect themselves from malpractice.

The reason doctors order the tests is not because they think they are needed..........................

the reason they order the tests is because the LAWYERS

have decided that if they didnt order the test and the case is that one in 100,000 case that really needed the test;then they can sue them and scavenge off some money for basically doing nothing to help society but pad their sorry pockets and pay off one victim (20%) from a doctor who likely made a mistake any doctor including oba-mao's doctor could have made.

So therefor we all have to have lots tests just to make sure the doctors ass is COVERED even though our doctors dont think we need them!!!!!!!! Thats the way docotrs practice, they think FIRST what is the way to cover my ass here and then they think about what is best for the patient and I DONT BLAME THEM ONE BIT!!!!!!!!!!! IN fact that is exactly what i would do too. CYA!!!!!!!!!!

This is called lawyers practicing medicine

and if anyone should have their salaries examined and reduced it is lawyers and federal govt workers and unions and many other groups that provide NO VALUE to society and nothing even remotely as important as healthcare.....their primary existence is self serving and many do nothing or very little for their over paid jobs---almost 100% of them are OVER PAID vs. their work loads! ESPECIALLY GOVT and UNION WORKERS== see gao and secret service as latest examples

And i would like to see this op sit in a busy dentists position and then state they want to be paid like doctors..........dentistry is surgery and the op would @!$%# in his pants trying to do a simple extraction or filling much less a difficult case....they earn every penny pal and also deserve to be well paid.

Doctors deserve every penny. Most people in society don't have the intelligence or motivation to do what doctors do.

It is the most stressful and emotionally rewarding profession out there.

I agree. You want to be a doc, then be one. The new healthcare bill has put a lot of uncertainty in healthcare. My insurance went up significantly and covered services went down. I work in healthcare and some doctors have quit taking medicare due to poor reimbursement. The private ins. companies base there rates on Medicare. They want you premiums and don't want to pay s--t.

Most people would be surprised at just how little doctors do. It's not like most of them work a 40 hour week like nurses or lab techs do.

It's not like most of them work a 40 hour week like nurses or lab techs do.

Youre right...they typically work double that

And a lot of people would be surprised at how much MORE work some doctors do compared to a lot of nurses and lab techs.

Marinmom, did you know that they had to LIMIT the hours that new doctors work to 80 hours per week? And after they are out of those first few years, there are no more limits on the hours. Most doctors I know are putting in at least 60 hours per week, if not more. You might not see all the work that they do, but they get in early and leave late. They are working HARD

Marinmom, did you know that they had to LIMIT the hours that new doctors work to 80 hours per week? And after they are out of those first few years, there are no more limits on the hours. Most doctors I know are putting in at least 60 hours per week, if not more. You might not see all the work that they do, but they get in early and leave late. They are working HARD

Most people would be surprised at just how little doctors do. It's not like most of them work a 40 hour week like nurses or lab techs do.

Not sure what kind of crappy doctor you see...but my pops had 2-300k in debt, has worked at the Mayo Clinic (#1 or 2 clinic in the country) for over 20 years, works at least a 12 hr day everyday since I can ever remember, has to ask for vacation 6 months in advance, and has to work every other holiday...Oh and he's on call once every month or two, listening to patients he's never seen explain problems over the phone that he has to diagnose an get tests for.

And btw, we've owned 4 total cars since i was born 23 years ago, lived a mile from the downtown in the same house and he's walked to work every day since we started. Definitely comfortable, hardly rich in terms of buying unnecessarily luxurious stuff, but I will NEVER question how hard that man works and has worked for what he has.

I realize that bad doctors are out there in bunches, but I really have no patience for people who disrespect doctors in general the way that you do.

marinmom,

I can tell by your posts that have something against physicians. I can also tell that you are completely uneducated and reek of envy.

My father is a physician and I hardly got to see the man growing up. He would leave the house between 4-6am and not return until at least 6pm. This was a normal work day. The weeks he was on call he was basically never home. He would work his normal day then come home and be called back out again at anytime during the night. It was not until i got older that I actually got to see and talk to my father due to staying up later and him dropping work at one of the hospitals so he could focus more on his practice.

Yes, I will admit that I was afforded luxuries due to my father's higher than average income, but these came at a cost. While other children's fathers were regulars at sporting events, school functions, family dinners, holidays, etc., my father was not. He was working his a** off to save peoples lives and improve people's lives in general. (Don't get me wrong he attended these functions when he could, but not nearly at the frequency that almost any other profession permits.)

So next time you post an ignorant and envious comment like the ones you have been posting, really think about what a doctor does. They sacrifice so much of Their life to make others lives better. Yes they do get compensated very well for it, but this compensation is absolutely justified and may even be too low.

Doctors are some of the brightest and most hardworking individuals we have in our country. They are what embodies the idea of working hard for what you want in life. I know you probably can not grasp this concept as your lack of education and brain power will not permit it. But I challenge you or anyone in your family to become a physician as I seriously doubt you or they could. Very few people have what it takes to become a physician, and even fewer have the willpower to go through what they have to go through on a day to day basis. So please, keep the envious and ignorant comments to your self.

I don't know ANY doctors who work more than three days a week. I was a lab tech for twelve years.

I witnessed first hand doctors having temper tantrums because they could not get freebies anymore.

Most of you have the typical starry eyed view of doctors. The fact of the matter is that most are big fat narcissists who are only nice to people with money.

marinmom: I don't know ANY doctors that don't work less than 5 days a week. I do know a couple of doctors that don't have office hours on Wednesdays - but, they still work on Wednesdays, they teach certain classes at the Medical School I attend on those days. Of course, they still see their hospitalized patients on Wednesdays (just as they do any other day).

As far as narcissism goes - yes, there are some that are narcissistic. But that's true in any profession. As far as only being nice to people with money, I'm sure there are some physicians out there like that - but, there are many that aren't like that. Huh, also the same as any other profession.

As far as you witnessing physicians throwing a fit when they don't get freebies goes, I'm not going to say you didn't see this. I suppose it's possible. I've never witnessed it.

The majority of the freebies I've seen was cheap junk from pharmaceuticals that typically involved ink pens, post-it pads, stress balls, rulers, and other small items that were individually worth maybe a few bucks at the most. Occasionally, they'd bring in lunch but usually that was shared with nurses and others who attended some presentation or they'd offer to buy drinks and finger foods for a team in a particular unit, again it was often tied to presenting something.

About the most expensive thing I ever saw single item wise was one pharmaceutical company offered TV's/stands for waiting rooms with built in dvd players. The dvd was an advertisement infomercial (couched as a news program) and the dvd player was glued shut. Most docs that I know who accepted them were teased by other docs because the infomercial was SO bad that you would have been embarrassed for it to be in your waiting room.

The free pens were nice to give patients to fill out new patient paperwork, as you wouldn't necessarily want someone returning a chewed on ink pen, but I never saw any doctor pitch a fit over not being able to accept junk from pharmaceutical or medical equipment suppliers. I am sure that there are some who have had temper tantrums but the majority of docs I know could care less. Why would they, aren't they all rich? lol

As far as 3 days per week, many doctors do have 3-4 days of office hours but the other 1-3 days are hospital or even volunteer clinic time. Then on the weekends they review charts, complete paperwork, are on-call, etc. I knew a plastic surgeon who spent 1 day every week volunteering services to help children with cosmetic birth defects that are often not covered under insurance. Occasionally, a new nurse will comment on a doctor only working at the hospital 1-2 days a week. Usually the veteran nurses will tell them that they are showing their ignorance.

elgranposte, maybe Physicians can pay a little more in taxes in order to help pay for your welfare checks.

Or maybe you might get an education and work for a living. Then, you might appreciate a very small portin of just what Physicians go through to "screw everybody blind".

My niece is an MD, so is her husband. They are both under 40 years old. House is in a neighborhood where the cheapest place goes for 500K. Both of their kids are in private schools. Tuition is $12,000 a year up to 5th grade then it increases and tops out at just over $20,000 a year in high school. Lake cottage in the northern part of the state. Office hours are 8 to 5, 4 days a week. One weekend a month on call.

one,

thats a very atypical situation...don't try to pass it off as average

THATS TWO DOCTORS...................NOT ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

padre,

Some of these doctors make that by their 5th year of work

Maybe, but their 5th year of work is completed at age 35-40 and occurs after paying a quarter to half million dollars in student loans. Important facts you left out, there...

what the hell does a primary doctor actually do on a daily basis? Check your pulse, look up your nose, hit your knees with hammers. (All of the above were done in my 8th grade health class).

That statement is ignorant and idiotic. Theres nothing I can do or say to you to salvage it

Padre, your complete ignorance is showing.

Eric,

I can see that you haven't put in a true days hard work if you think that the job of a primary doctor compares to that of the people building these large homes that they live in. Also you must not have gone to college, because if you did you would know that other majors in college cost a lot of money too and they aren't looking at 100K+ when they get out. You ever heard of MBA's, PHD's, etc. The costs of education is a life choice not a requirement to live. If you don't want to pay.. don't go to school. Doctors feel they are in another class than most, hence this article.

Padre, a person can go to junior college and learn to weld or be trained as an electrician and make over $100,000 a year if they are willing to work hard. Their debt will be miniscule compared to that acquired in med school. I worked one year as a surveyor exploring for oil and made $3000+ in one quarter. That was putting in 60+ hours a week and that was hard work. I have subsequently worked with and as a doctor and I can tell you that YOU are the one that does not have one iota of an idea about hard work. It's not the physical labor. It's the pressure to keep up with paper work, advances in education, 24 to 96 hours of continuos call and above all the pressure of not making errors that might hurt someone. I've also worked as a home builder. I almost fell off the roof of a 2 story home once. Home builders certainly work hard, but the hardest hours I have ever put in were with a young mother bleeding to death with 3 children under the age of 3.

Padre:

Roofing is hard work and is also a life choice.

Not the feeling by doctors that they are in another class but the desire on the part of MSN to stoke class envy and warfare, hence this article. Don't you ever wonder why they don't do articles like this about lawyers? [Probably not.]

Padre, you seem to have little grasp on what goes on for a primary care/general physician. GPs are the "catch all" for medical professionals. They have to know a little bit about every thing (there are dozens and dozens of specialties), instead of knowing a lot about one thing, like specialists. When a patient comes to them with crazy symptoms, they have to figure out what COULD be going on to start treatment and figure out what type of specialist to send the patient to. They have the highest patient loads of any physicians and that means more back end work (billing, billing disputes, rx issues/refills, pre-authorizations, etc).

And BTW--medical school and it's associated costs are nothing compared to the typical MBA that you talk about.

padre,

first, by the responses of others on here to you, I think that can tell you a little about how misguided you are.

Secondly, I never said that roofing isn't hard work...but medicine is hard work too. A different kind, but difficult nonetheless

Also you must not have gone to college

WRONG! graduated with highest honors, but thats beside the point

that other majors in college cost a lot of money

True, but most don't have to go on to grad school, which for medicine costs 25K a year, and then make 9 bucks an hour for the next 3-7 years.

You mustve flunked math...

Right Padre- doctors make way too much money. If they didn't earn so much- medical school wouldn't cost so much. Its amazing how people have an inability to grasp simple holistic thinking.

Am I the only one that thinks the system is broken when it costs hundreds of dollars for a 5 minute "consult"?

If the 5 minute consult requires that you went to extremely specialized schooling for 13 years then no...the system isn't broken, it just requires a large amount of knowledge and expertise which is expensive. If the consult was about what type of grass to plant in your lawn, ya...a couple hundred bucks would be too much...but if the consult is about whether or not you have digestion, stomach cancer, a virus or heartburn...ya, I think a couple hundred might be worth it since that info is a little harder to master and understand.

You might say $1,000 is too much for a car part...and you'd be right if it's a tire, a door handle, or a cup holder...but if it's the engine, the transmission or the onboard computer 1000$ seems a little more reasonable. Realize that a consultation may be extremely simple at any given time...but they also have to be abel to handle and understand the direst of circumstance whenever it presents itself.

How about 400K at 7% interest? Oh, plus malpractice insurance. That all comes after the paycheck.

$300,000 - $50k (malpractice) = 250k - 31K (loans/year for 30 years) = 219k

That's 219k before paying your staff and running your business. Couple of nurses @ 60K costs 120K now you're at 99K. Oh and don't forget the 60 hour work week. That comes out to $32 an hour.

Throw in a secretary for good measure @ 40k and you're looking at bringing home $59k. Now it's $19/hr...the equivalent of $40k/year for someone working a 40 hour work week.

Adds up quick doesn't it?

Not when you dont understand math. No one is running a medical practice with two nurses, a secretary, and an office, and insurance at 50k/year for a gross revenue of 300k / year. Seriously?

Holy crap Jim...really? lol...you're right, they aren't running it with that. They're running it with more, plus office expenses.

FYI malpractice doesn't reflect your income, it reflects the risk of your job. So yeah 50k is reasonable. Some more, some less.

word of advice, don't go to law school...you're a terrible debater

Then you have the patient that goes through four doctors and FINALLY gets an accurate diagnosis. This really happens. No joke. And what takes place in the middle is a BUNCH of wasted time, suffering, bogus medications that introduce further complications, anxiety, frustration....and oh-yea, those first three doctors want you to PAY THEIR BILLS!

What you fail to recognize is there is a GREAT DEAL of incompetence in physicians and yet, they always bill you. No "refunds." No "money back guarantees." Has any doctor ever admitted to being inept? Wrong? Misdiagnose a patient? I don't think so. The reason why there are so many law suits is that DOCTORS CANT RECOGNIZE THEY MADE A MISTAKE - they are God in their own mind. You are forced to bring suit agaist such arrogance.

Brian I agree that physicians have a problem admitting when they're wrong...110%

BUT, to be fair, they eat any balance between actual cost and what your insurance decides to pay. So don't say they don't give refunds, etc. They treat you as best they can and then ask the insurance company to pay...then the insurance company says "nah, we'll pay you half that...or nothing." Instead of doing what dentists do (bill you for the balance), physicians eat it.

Noah,

You are so right... which is why we need national tort reform. I'm lucky to live in and work in the healthcare industry in Texas where we passed tort reform years ago... it has made an amazing difference in how we run our systems now. Some examples are: Texas has more requests for physician licensing than it can process, the docs of flocking here in droves because of the malpractice protections (most other states are desperate for physician recruitment), the money the hospitals have saved is being put back into the hospitals in new construction, equipment, and staff. And the best part is we no longer have to watch all those ambulance chasing commercials! The lawyers have left in almost the same numbers as the physicians have come in! YEA!!

BrianHudson12

Then you have the patient that goes through four doctors and FINALLY gets an accurate diagnosis. This really happens. No joke. And what takes place in the middle is a BUNCH of wasted time, suffering, bogus medications that introduce further complications, anxiety, frustration....and oh-yea, those first three doctors want you to PAY THEIR BILLS!

What you fail to recognize is there is a GREAT DEAL of incompetence in physicians and yet, they always bill you. No "refunds." No "money back guarantees."

What you fail to recognize are two very important things:

1) medicine isn't like buying a new air conditioning unit. Money back guarantee? You must be either an adolescent or completely ignorant. You think that if a physician takes the time out of his/her day to make your appointment, but they can't give you the answer to every single question you have on that visit and you decide to go see another doctor, that you shouldn't have to pay them for the service they provided to you?? Get real!

2) Medicine is oftentimes an inexact science. The human body is extremely complicated and there's not a physician (or anyone else on the planet) who knows every single thing about every single possible illness/disorder/etc. There's a reason there are dozens and dozens of specialties within the entire scope of medicine. There are still significant disorders that science can't explain, yet you seem to think that every single doctor you go to should be able to recognize instantly what a proper diagnosis for every patient is. Let's not forget that the same disorders/illnesses/problems can present differently for every person too, because we're not all clones of each other.

Your general lack of knowledge about medicine makes you sound like you're throwing a temper tantrum. Grow up or educate yourself a little bit.

(And yes, I personally know how frustrating it is to see EIGHT different physicians to get a proper diagnosis, as I had to last year. It wasn't the physicians' faults.)

These are net (after expense) and not gross incomes that are being reported.

Key to lowering malpractice would be for more self-regulation by the doctors. I live in an area in which NO PLAINTIFF has won a malpractice case EVER! Why, because the doctor's won't testify against each other. Now, I'm all for getting rid of frivolous claims, but we had one doctor sued so often that the court staff shook their head every time a new case was filed. He never had any privileges revoked by the hospital and he kept getting referrals. This despite the fact that the nurses in the hospital would tell you (outside of work of course) that they would never let a family member go to him. The only reason that he isn't still being sued constantly is that he was finally busted while driving while drunk and high on drugs. Once that hit the news, the state board finally started investigating and his license was pulled. From what I've seen, about 10% of the doctors accout for about 90% or more of the malpractice suits, but no one does anything to stop them. That is why the rates are rising, because every good doctor must pay for the ones who are not.

Did the physician have the money to pay the 1 million dollar fine?

Tim,

Whether a physician can bill for the balance unpaid by the insurance depends on whether s/he is a contracted provider with that insurance. I had an emergency procedure done several years ago, and the anesthesiologist was not a contracted provider with my insurance. The insurance paid a portion, and I paid the rest. He did not eat it.

The same holds true for dentists. Contracted providers cannot bill the patient for anything other than the agreed-upon copay.

When there, Done that myself... Have payed a lot of bills that wasn't "eaten" by the doctors... Don't have to worry about it now... No insurance... Just have to pray I don't get sick...

Oh, and my favorite... My doctor's office waited to file with my insurance for so long that the insurance won't pay anything... They only had about a Year!!! Can you guess who got to pay the bill??? Me and there was No "eating by the physican"...

Don't get me wrong - I don't resent paying the bill. I was just pointing out that whether doctors and dentists can balance bill is dependent on whether they are contracted with ("in-network") and insurance company.

Sandy, yeah no doubt.

I was balance billed for something once too, pissed me off!

I'm speaking in generalities...any attempt to get specific on a forum is pointless!

Why would it piss you off? If the physician hadn't agreed to take a lower fee, they had every right to bill you. Now, if they were in-network on your insurance, that's a different story.

No, the doctor was not "fined." There was a judgment against him or an out of court settlement--paid for by his insurance carrier.

Wait, you said the patient went to the neurologist for headaches and he was also asymptomatic?

Pissed me off because who likes to see a bill they didn't expect? That's all.

@oneiron

I admit that "fined" really wasn't the right word. It was a judgement against him- really I'm not all that familiar with how things work in court and the terminology. In the end he was found "negligent" or responsible or whatever is tantamount to him being at fault. But no, his insurance carrier did not pay it. My dad knows about this because this guy was writing frantically to neurologists across the country. I really don't know how things turned out for him.

Anyway, I agree with the other comments that there are quite a few doctors that are incompetent. When I was 18, my university health center sent me in for what seemed to be a routine procedure. It left part of my body paralyzed, and my shoulder joint literally couldn't hold itself together. I recovered by a razor thin margin only thanks to blind luck. That was a scary time in my life.

But with that said, my dad is extremely competent. I'm not just saying this because he's my father. I've had people (usually parents of friends) come up to me and tell me how they had chronic problems that no neurologist was diagnosing right until they saw my father. A principal investigator I worked for told me that my dad was the guy that other doctors went to when they had no idea what was wrong with a patient. If it matters to you, my dad went to University of Penn for undergrad and Columbia for medical school. And yet, despite this, he still gets sued. At this point I should put in a disclaimer- he's not being sued for malpractice (at least not that I know of, but you don't need to do something wrong to be sued for malpractice). I'll put it like this- if someone gets in a fender bender or car accident with my father, they will claim extensive soft tissue damage, constant headaches, pain and suffering that cannot be quantified and sue the living daylights out of my father.

As an example, my mom was driving my dad's car and got into an accident. Unfortunately, those MD plates will guarantee a lawsuit by virtue of you being a doctor. They other guy had heart surgery 4 weeks ago and was explicitly told not to drive for 8 weeks. Anyway, he sues us asking for 5 million. But get this- his wife also sues us. She wasn't even in the car. She's claiming "loss of consortium," which means that she couldn't have sex with her 55 year old stud-of-a-husband for a designated period of time. She claims pain and suffering. She asks for $100,000.

More ignorant statements from you, Brian. Doctor's salaries have extremely little to do with the cost you have to pay to see them. You obviously have no idea how insurance reimbursements work or anything about the costs of running a medical practice (whether private or within a hospital setting). Most physicians receive less than 50% of what is billed from the insurance companies. They eat the rest. Some procedures are paid at less than 10% and Medicaid reimburses less than 5% of most procedures, especially for specialists like orhtopaedics or allergists, etc. Do a little research before going on and on with your ignorant rants about medicine and physicians. You know little to nothing about what you're talking about.

Brian, contrary to popular belief, Physicians do not determine their charges. This is all done by Medicare and insurance companies.

You'd better hope that Physicians never "price themselves out of the market", because your butt will be in trouble without them.

hjack,

absolutely correct! Thanks for bringing up that important point. I agree that many people do not know that drs have virtually no say in what they are paid

Eric and Hjack are correct.. Medicare establishes the basis for most reimbursement rates. Every year for the past 5 years Medicare has decreased the amount of reimbursement. Meanwhile costs have increased. Just found out today that another major insurer just lowered their reimbursement rates as well.

There are a VERY limited number of wealthy cash paying patients and the majority of those have insurance and want to use it. Thus their rates are set. Those who don't have insurance are poor and often struggle paying anything, so are seen for almost nothing. Medicaid won't even pay the cost of electricity and paperwork.

A good example: Today I discovered that after spending truly hours (not just 15 min) with a patient over the past month I was told by their insurance company that they would not reimburse for my services. I had cleared the services with the insurance co. and was told they were covered (at a reduced rate but still covered) but apparently there was a patient-ins related issue, so no payment. Now I get NOTHING for my time, as the patient is unemployed and broke. I still have to pay for the overhead used during that time. I could bill the patient $1000/hour but I'd have as much luck getting that as $5 total, so NO I don't have the luxury of setting my rates.

That's an excellent point, Brian. Fact is, lawyers, vendors, state and federal agencies, professional organizations, testing entities, employees, gardeners, insurance agents, charities, local government, tax gatherers, loan collectors, admen, hoteliers, repair men and women - all circle around doctors like vultures, waiting in line to get their share of the spoils hanging off the bones of the rich guy. (or gal)

Yeah, riiiiiight Elizabeth. These physicians own a bunch of stuff they can't afford and that's why they're not rich. Do you have any idea what kind of debt one takes on to get a medical degree and how long it takes? Do you know what medical malpractice insurance is and how much it costs? Do you know what extra costs are associated with being self-employed (aside from paying your employees, you have to pay all the "employer" contributions for your own FICA and SS, plus other expenses)? Look into that and then come back to comment.

Elizabeth... I don't own a smart phone or even flat screen TV. I rent a small apartment and it's in a good community but not on a beach or golf course. I live well within my means and have never missed a payment on any of the debt I owe. I serve a majority of patients who are too poor to even afford the minimal co-payment. I can't even waive that without extra paper and cost to myself.

I'd love to make $315K a year. Heck, I'd even enjoy $100K free and clear of practice expenses. I have never complained about my salary and only ask for what is owed to me for my work to be paid. I'm not in the minority is this respect as most doctors I know are not high paid specialists.

The fun part about averages is that you'll find many doctors making much less and the average is higher because a small few do make huge incomes.

I'm the same. I've always felt rich even when I made 600.00/month. I have substance in my life.

Than you for "no one" rather than "noone." I know "noone' is OK too but it looks so silly.

thank obama care for that, road warrior

Chuck.. Please name ONE organization that will pay for total student debt for a doctor. At best they'll offer a dirt cheap salary and fold part of the pay package student loan debt.

Ummm Mike, yeah... you might want to rethink your statement because my company does. If they choose to have their debt paid off, the Doctors have to stay on staff for ten years, but after that they can do what ever they want.

None of the hospitals I worked in ever paid any portion of student debt, not even for surgeons who completed their residencies and fellowships there. These are well known hospitals ranked in the US News & World Reports on a regular, if not yearly, basis. It's not common for organizations to pay off student debt, especially private practices.

Great comments, Chuck. By the way, please name and list the organizations that pay for the Physician's student debts. You are a great example of 'open mouth, insert foot'.

And since it is so easy, why don't you devote a third of your life and go to med school. That way, you could get all the free goodies for school debt.

Chuck, how about some facts please instead of your wild suppositions and vague retellings about "recent surveys"?

well said chuck. well said. If doctors don't want to pay so much for medical school, they should stop earning so much money.

12thman.. What company???? Is the salary competitive? Is that only for particular specialists? How does one apply?

Why would I want to work my ass off through high school to get the grades to get accepted to the college which gives me the best chance to get into medical school, slave through college to be competitive to gain acceptance to medical school, work through medical school and get all grey before my time just to "live comfortably"? Would you go through all that just to make $100,000 a year?

I can tell you precisely why: for the privilege, stimulation, and joy of being able to do it.

None of them said they couldn't live comfortably, they said they didn't consider themselves "rich". And as several posters have pointed out, the definition of "rich" changes based upon who you ask...

allthumbs,

You should apply for medical school and become a doctor, for the privilege, stimulation and joy of being able to do it. Come on. I know you can do it.

No way! You mean I have to go back and do it all over again? I'm entering my 32nd year in practice, most of those years in solo primary care. I've loved almost every minute of it and don't complain about what I make. But I have to admit, having not had a vacation in 16 years, that I'm starting to get a little tired.

@Road Warrior: I could have gone to medical school. I certainly have the capabilities to do so. But I hate dealing with people, notably sick people that like to complain. I also enjoy the intellectual stimulation of science. So I went to grad school for five years and got my degree. I'm certainly not "in it for the money" and I'd argue that anyone that chooses a vocation for the pay is not going to do well. I might break that six figure barrier in a year or so, but I'm perfectly fine where I'm at now, too. After five years of living dirt cheap, where my wife and I both worked and barely got by, we've learned to live cheaply and pocket everything in excess of what we actually need.

I enjoy going to work every day. It engages my mind, and I am essentially one of the few world experts in my subject. You should choose a job for pay. You should choose a career for living.

100k a year does not get you a decent home in a first class neighborhood, membership in the country club, a 40' sailboat or a Ferrari or Porsche.

Define the following: Decent home, first-class neighborhood. Find a country club that doesn't charge so much for someone to consider it a luxury or go play put-put for $3 a game. As for the boat and the car, take that $100K, have "endowment" surgery, and then you won't need a Ferrari or a Porsche.