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Kaiser Health News
Few doctors think of themselves as rich, and only about half think they’re fairly compensated, according to survey results released this week by Medscape.
The annual survey isn’t scientific – and perhaps, not surprising, either — but it offers insights into what nearly 25,000 physicians earn, and how they view that number. In 2011, compensation self-reported by surveyed physicians ranged from an average of $156,000 for pediatricians to $315,000 for radiologists and orthopedic surgeons.
The survey showed that 51 percent of all physicians — and 46 percent of primary care physicians – think they’re compensated fairly.
Only about 11 percent of doctors consider themselves rich, mostly because of their debts and expenses, according to Medscape.
The survey also offers a glimpse at how physicians view coming changes to the health care system, such as efforts to improve quality or offer care through accountable care organizations, which are integrated systems included in the federal health law.
More than half said they expect their incomes to decline because of ACOs (although very few were participating in such a system), and only 25 percent said quality measures and treatment guidelines will improve patient care.
Overall, 54 percent of physicians said they would choose medicine as a career again. Only 41 percent said they would choose the same specialty and 23 percent would choose the same practice setting.
Others groups that survey physicians about their income include the Medical Group Management Association and Merritt Hawkins. A 2011 MGMA report, for instance, which looked at data from 2010, found the median compensation for radiologists was $471,253 and $192,148 for physicians in pediatric/adolescent medicine.
Medscape surveyed 24,216 physicians across 25 specialty areas from Feb. 1-17, 2012 using a third-party online survey collection website.
Physician compensation in 2011:
Pediatrics -- $156,000
Psychiatry -- $170,000
Obstetrics/Gynecology -- $220,000
General surgery -- $265,000
Plastic surgery -- $270,000
Cardiology -- $314,000
Orthopedics -- $315,000
Radiology -- $315,000
For complete chart: http://capsules.kaiserhealthnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/doc-salaries-500.png
This story was produced in collaboration with Kaiser Health News, an editorially independent program of the Kaiser Family Foundation, a nonpartisan health care policy research organization which is unaffiliated with Kaiser Permanente
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Say what you want, but once you're a practicing physician in any specialized field being a doctor is a pretty cush gig. High six figure salaries with PREDICTABLE call time and overtime sound pretty good to me. I've been in corporate finance for 10 plus years after earning a Master's degree, have only just now cracked the six figure mark, and have hours that are ANYTHING but predictable. Client X is doing an acquisition and I have vacation planned? Oh well, scratch vacation! Gotta work!
Before they start bitching, maybe doctors should ask around what others do for a living, how much they get paid, and what their hours are like.
The grass is always greener on the other side, but doctors have pretty f'ing green yards as far as I'm concerned.
If you just finally cracked the 6 figure mark with a masters degree and over 10 years, maybe you should have made different choices. I don't what doctors you know that have a cush job and predictable call time & overtime, but maybe you could fill some of the doctors in so they can go get the easy doctor jobs. Your issue about scratching your vacation? Small taste of everyday in a doctors life.
It's 7:30 PM and I'm on my twelfth hour in the clinic, just following up on phone calls, test results, etc. I came on here to take a break and read just how easy I have it.
Out of curiosity tell us how much you think doctors really should be earning and give some reasons why.
You guys on this site are being misled completely. MGMA and amga survey Median Income
is FM -$209,561, IM $214,307, General Surgery $357,091, Ortho surgery $500,672 OBGYN $295,761.....
Any one telling you anything else is selling you BAD coolaid. This doesnt consider loan forgiveness programs or call pay that a lot of place don't even survey report or other side programs . Doctors rich? Filthy Rich compared to the average american. As far as working hard? Gimme a break..There are nurses aids making 10 bucks an hour doing 3 jobs working 10 times as hard. You all paid via medicare to train these doctors. Yeah they went to school to be glorified auto mechanics, but so do a lot of other folks in the world making a lot less.....The rest of your whiny cra p is mularkey. NOW deal with it. I guarantee this thread will end quickly..You see, these guys control government and government control is what its all about.!
Right on, but your understating the problem... Everyone wants something for free...
Additionally the reason for the doc shortage is medicare only allows a certain number of training programs per year. Curteousy of the federal insiders. 35,000 docs per year graduate ---1/2 women who have kids that take massive amount of time off........when you have demand for 100k - 300k or more docs per year. Its a big friggn joke and we are all sucke rs. THe states can't train doctors. ITS ALL A BIG MONOPOLY!
jolly joker: Many hospitals (but not all) are moving toward NOT paying for call time. That means that many physicians don't get paid for the hours they are on call. There are loan forgiveness programs - however, with these, the physician agrees to work in an under served area (either rural or inner city usually), which means that their annual compensation is less than others.
As far as the difference between the Medscape survey and the numbers you put up, probably has to do with those that responded. Newer physicians responded to this survey at a slightly higher rate than physicians that had been in practice for a while - newer physicians typically make less than those that have practiced for many years (as they should, it's a matter of experience).
Nurses, techs, and aids work very hard - no doubt about that. Physicians also work hard. Their jobs are different - so they work hard in different ways.
Also, no physicians don't go to school to be glorified auto mechanics - if you knew anything about medical school and residency, you would realize what an inaccurate statement this is.
what are you smoking? Most hospitals pay lots of call pay. Most contracts run 180-400 k per year per specialty. Also, Medscape is a laugh survey. You call someone up on the phone to tell you how much you make? AMGMA and MGMA is used by a majority of hospitals to pay docs! A new fp out of med school is guaranteed 180k starting on average plus educational loans and signing bonus. Gimme a frigg n break. Your in over your head buddy. If it wasn't for medicare protecting your sorry field there would be tons of doctors. But then, thats the majic in your bs isn't it?
FM is $209K. WHERE??? I'm not even close to that, at least 50K off that mark.
jolly joker: I didn't say all (or even most) hospitals don't pay for call - I said MANY hospitals don't pay call. In fact, I know several physicians that won't take call BECAUSE they aren't paid for call.
The reason many hospitals won't pay for call, is because they've hired a hospitalist. You know - the internal medicine doctor that works at the hospital ONLY seeing hospitalized patients, they don't have a practice outside of the hospital. As long as the hospitalist can see all the patients that are in patient, then it works out - because there is no need to call in the physician. However, that isn't always the case, and they will still want to call a physician in - and, in those cases, they often don't pay the physician that gets called in.
That said, there are certain specialties that always have call - ob/gyn, for example, doesn't use hospitalists. Instead, the ob/gyn is on call (depending on the size of their practice, they may be on call a lot or not very much). Often ob/gyn's are paid for their on-call time - because there isn't anyone else.
Also, a Family practice doctor doesn't make that much to start. Most of them start much lower - though they should be paid more, they actually have to know a very broad amount of information.
There wouldn't be tons of doctors if it weren't for medicare - not sure where you got that. It's not exactly easy to get into medical school, and there is a significant number that either fail out or drop out because they couldn't make it.
I was injured at work 4 years ago, somewhere around 18 broke bones. While all my bills were covered (nor really) its been a nightmare. Substandard care, crappy insurance company. Finding a good doctor is next to impossible. There all in it for the money.
Simply said its been a nightmare for me. I was even in therapy over it until this week the insurance cut that off.
I figured it out once, One doctor made $425 per visit. This was the ONLY doctor I could find that would take my case (Once I was released) where I live (not in the same State as the injuring occurred).
So $425 an hour isn't enough? I know they have bills, and hired help.
The Government taking over our Health Care (My insurance is State Government ran) will be a nightmare (already is).
We need to elect some elected Officials that do what they say and say what they do. Simple as that. Not ones that fight over controlling all aspects of OUR LIVES. Not ones that screw us behind our backs.
Said another way, Ron Paul 2012 and Congressmen that are like him!
Smart , Compassionate ,hard working and totally committed to their art,which Medicine is . Incredibly Naive when it comes to money and what really constitutes wealth . We should be asking the question who would you trust and think should be regulated in the health care industry the CEo's of health care providers and insurance companies or physicians . You think they acquire those outrageous compensation packages by holding the line on costs to the consumer ?
Or the Government? I accept NONE of them controlling cost, they are all out to get money.... Even Doctors. Describing them as hard working, Compassionate, totally committed? Lies. I lived it for years now and NONE of those things are true about 99% of the doctors out there that I've met.
$156,000 pre-tax is less than $100,000 after taxes. This for at least 10 years more college which likely produces a $20,000 a year bill for paying off their tuition.
Not to mention many doctors are putting in 12 hour days. Yeah, I am not sure many doctors should think they are 'rich'.
How many thousands of dollars in liability insurance do you think a doctor needs to protect themselves from lawsuits?
Everybody that is rich thinks that they are not. Look at the Romneys. They don't consider themselves rich either, but we know better.
Everybody thinks that they don't have enough and should be making more. Whether it's true or not, who's to say? It's human nature to want more.
Compared to a professional athlete in the big leagues or one of the Kardashians the doc who makes $300K is not rich but compared to the guy who makes $40K he is rich. The guy who makes $40K isn't rich compared to a doctor but compared to the person cleaning toilets all day for minimum wage $40K is rich. It's all relative.
Doctors are underpaid in my book, and I'm not a doctor. The CEO's are MASSIVELY overpaid because most of those corporations are running on thier own momentum due to their size, and few CEOs are singularly so valuable that they couldn't be replaced by another suit. A few are irreplaceble - Buffet, Gates, Jobs..those types, but most are just getting rich and could be replaced. Doctors OTOH expend massive amounts for education and risk their own well being the lives of others. THAT is worth major bucks. CEOs and overpaid middlemen salespeople are where the money goes to waste.
The only job a CEO has is to protect the shareholders' interests. That means f**king patients out of care, even if they need it.
"we the people" I'll bet you don't like puppies or babies either !
That's because they are NOT "rich" by any means
Let's see,, Hmmm, Any of you LOSERS in here pay these kind of bills??
Medical mal-practice insure paymts of $ 4,000 MONTHLY,, Yes, kiddies that's MONTHLY
College debt - over $ 400k- @ $ 1,000 MONTHLY
Your resid . Hosp insure- Depending what state- $ 500- 2,000 monthly
--------------------------
No, I didn't think so.
Any of you losers live off the public dole called medicare and MA which funds about 70% of healthcare and make 200 k starting? Oh, those high college bills are paid off in roughly 5 years. The whining and the crying has to stop. You are a bunch a whinny pigs, now get over it.
It's not that the doctors are over paid, many of their offices are somewhat inefficient, but the BIG problem is the Health Care Moguls and the Hospitals, that is where all the money gets sucked up.
Now you hit something on the head. Most hospital administrators make more then most doctors. At our local hospital they make $375,000 a year and the doctors make $250,000. Don't get me started on the health care moguls.
By comparison, an experienced teacher makes about $40-50K per year. Correct me if I am wrong here but is it not teachers who taught these folks the necessary skills to go to med school in the first place. I don't begrudge the Doctors for their salaries, but please, a $200K vs a $45K salary for those who prepared the doctors for their work?
Another thing is the cost of the peripheral health care. Without the cost of insurance, health care would would be back to a reasonable. What the hell does a CEO of any company do to earn $23,000,000.00 per year? Seriously?
A teacher did not go to school for 8-10 years and work 90-120 hours a week. Both my parents were teachers and if you look at the amount of time they have off from work its hugh. If teachers worked all year like doctors they would make $75,000 a year. Teachers have four months off each year. Not bad!!!
Sigh. Public high school teachers may make $40-50,000 a year, but they aren't the ones teaching doctors how to be doctors, so that doesn't make any sense. College professors make double that. They can't really take credit for teaching doctors how to be doctors, but they do have an impact on the pre-reqs and they do prepare them for medical school. Medical school professors are the ones who actually do the medical teaching, and they make around $300,000/year at minimum.
My Physicians work hard and take very good care of me. I think they deserve more compensation. Having a M.D. or D.O. after your name is a great responsibility. Unlike these nurse practitioners who "think" they are Physicians...What a freaking joke. Until you get a M.D. or D.O. after your name I will not listen to your medical advice.
To all you left-wing lunatics that are blasting doctors for being "rich', I have an idea.....Go to med school and show us all how it's done.
Just another example of your envious, jealous crap you keep spewing. Just another example of you blasting success to hide your own shortcomings. So sad..............
I would have, but didn't come from a rich doctors family and couldn't afford it. However, most of the children of doctors in our town did go to some form of med school. Hummm. Bernie, try again. : (
Bernie- could not agree more with you. I work for 12 doctors and not one of them had parents to help them pay for school. They took out loans and have to pay them back. Most have $250,000 in loans that will take 10-15 years to pay back. They are also in the high tax bracket, so most of the money goes to state and fed taxes.
Left wingers should also like this because for each doctor there are 2-5 full time employees.
Hey realworld, I came from a family of a bus driver and a phone repairman. Sold my services to the AF and served 11 years active duty so I could pay for medical school. Stop whining about what your family couldn't afford. There are options out there.
Doctors' kids going to med school will be a thing of the past.
Realworld - I'm finishing up my 2nd year of medical school (I take my Step 1 boards in just under 2 months and then I start my 3rd year a week later). My mom is an administrative assistant and my dad works in a factory making plastic bottles - between the two of them, they make less than just over $45,000/year. They didn't help me pay for undergrad, nor are they helping me pay for medical school. I got married out of high school, had two children, got divorced and then went to undergrad. I didn't get pell grants through undergrad, nor did I take out much in the way of student loans - I was on nearly full academic scholarships. For medical school, I am taking out about $55,000/year in student loans.
I do have a couple of friends who's parents are paying for their medical school - but, the vast majority of the students are paying for it themselves via student loans.
my whole family is doctors and I still took out >100K in loans...and I went to a public undergrad (full scholarship), and a public medical school
As others have said, there are options
Med school costs so much, thats part of the problem as doctors have to make alot just to pay that back.
After all their training and education they are entitled to the money they make. Better to have them compared to doctors practicing under socialized medicine and unhappy with their salaries. We have the best care in the world here and they have kept me alive for years to prove it.
No one short of Bill Gates or Warren Buffett consider themselves rich. The doctors weren't complaining, just answering a silly question. A person making 20K would consider a person making 50k rich. A person making 50k would consider one making 125k rich. The 125k person would consider 300k rich and so on.
They aren't starving or homeless, but as many people have pointed out, have lots of expenses going out and sacrifice a great deal to get where they are. They have to do well in hs so they can get into college and outperform 90% of their classmates so the can compete to get into medical school, take on massive debts and sometime in their 30s, begin to start their actual job as doctors. The people who are ambitious and smart enough to become doctors could certainly pursue other careers and make just as much or more money without having to wait years and take on the level of debt.
I work for 12 doctors and I would not want their life ever. Yes, they make $250,000 to $300,000 a year, but they work 100-120 hours a week. You divide the amount of time in hours worked and it is not very good. They give up their families and any sort of hobbies. Then they get 50% of patients that complain about how bad they feel, but won't do anything to help themselves. As a whole they become doctors to help people, they don't do it for the money. Hell dentist make as much if not more then my doctors and they only work 40 hours a week and with dentist there are no calls and no Malpractice.
On a side note: just because you get a bill for $500 from your doctor does not mean that is the amount he/she will get. The doctors have contracts with your insurance company that will pay them maybe $200 instead of the $500. Dentist on the other hand get what ever they ask for, so if it says $500 they will get $500. My two cents!!!
Dentists do have to pay for malpractice insurance, albeit at a much lower rate than physicians.
A dentist who participates with an insurance company who bills $500, but contracted with that company to only be paid $350 gets the $350. Same as a physician.
I have never met a thief who thought he or she was rich, that is why the continue to steal.
I think everyone who is bitching should go out and become a doctor. It takes four years after college to get the MD, then a grueling residency whose term varies by specialty, but can be many more years. Then think of how many MDs are on call at all hours or work through the night to save lives, every night. Not to mention, there is no room for error, or for having a bad day.
Be a banker instead.
Then at least you get to enjoy your money.
Being rich monetarily isn't about what your gross income is, and not even what your net income is. I.e., it's not how many zeros your checking account has. "Rich" is when you don't HAVE to work anymore in order to live at a comfortable lifestyle. If you have enough money coming in to live well even if you never work again, that's rich. If you have to work and earn in order to stay ahead of your bills, it's still a treadmill.
Just one more thing. It should be mentioned that nurses are wonderful human beings who are, many of them, also called on for great personal sacrifice at a fraction of the MD pay. A toast to them.
How much does a doctor of love make per year? That's what I want to know.
Most doctors are highly intellegent, highly trained and hard working people. They don't make the tens of millions that some CEO's make but they do make considerably more than most other workers. Rich? Depends on your definition of rich. They certainly aren't poor or average. Any doctor who thinks he is, is out of touch with the average guy.
More than 100 comments- mostly civil and serious. But, only one compared Dr. income to health care CEO's and one to sports coaches. No one would touch sports players- a "profession for which one does not need an education and those that are educated likely got them on sports scholarships.
They are richer in other more meaningful ways like being able to help people and contribute etc...
MrEnergyCzar
@Chris-749391
You're completely and totally wrong about Doctors not being on the same level in training and education as those with Ph.D's. Take it from someone who's dating a doctor and who's currently receiving a Ph.D. Where do you get your facts from? How could you possibly think that it takes longer and more training to receive a Ph.D. than it does an M.D. or D.O? All told, it'll take me 5 years post bachelor's to recieve my Ph.D. My girlfriend did medical school in 4 years, what is, of course, required. However, just because she finished med school doesn't mean she's done training, it'll still take an additional 3 years of residency (including 16 hour days, 6 days a week, for weeks at a time) before she's fully licensed. Yes, she's getting paid as a resident, but absolutely no where near what you think, and when you factor in that most weeks she's working 90+ hours, her hourly rate blows. Most docs do make 40-50k starting out as residents, but add in the fact that they have 6-figure debt and are paying $1,000+ a month for student loans, and you realize it's definitely not for the money. If that's what you consider "a shocking amount" I'd had to wonder what you think they should be paid.
As a Ph.D. student, I'm fortunate enough to be in a field that compensates me while I'm in school. Granted, I could work at the mall and make more money then I do as a Ph.D. student, and I have to teach, but it's absolutely amazing to be able to be paid while going to school. Doctors certainly can't say the same as they shell out a ton of cash to get their degrees.
Doctors deserve every bit of what they're compensated for; if you want to look to where the health care dollars are going, try looking elsewhere. You should really do some research rather than spouting off "facts" that do nothing except clearly show your inferiority complex.