People didn't believe in germs, either, until the invention of the microscope and Louis Pasteur's vaccine.

Knowledge is power.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I believe psychiatry and some of the associated medical breakthroughs are completely valid scientific fields and should be pursued. I'm aware there are legitimate cases of things like depression and other disorders caused by chemical imbalances that can be addressed with medication. I'm not exactly a Scientologist channeling Tom Cruise over here.

But if you for one second believe that these conditions aren't massively overdiagnosed purely for profit by the medical and pharmaceutical industries, then I have a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you. Teenagers are by far the easiest group to misdiagnose and medicate based on their failure to conform to adult behavioral expectations. Case in point: the ADD epidemic. Think all those kids on Ritalin needed it? Yeah, me either.

Stand on your soapbox and tell that to the parent's of the kids who have committed suicide for one reason or another. I'm sure they'll be totally convinced by YOUR theory!

AE, and YOU can continue the drivel of many that continues to shift responsibility of just about every behavioral problem in this country on anything and everything but themselves. Kids don't kill themselves because they have a "depression gene", nor do people become gay because of a "gay gent", nor can you tell who is going to become a Hitler or a Mother Therasa by a blood test. PEOPLE act or behave in a certain way usually because of their family, friends, or environment. We ALL have certain goals for our behavior - or misbehavior, even kids that kill themselves. Quit looking for excuses or majic pills to fix things that have been studied to death for over 200 years. When a kid kills themself and a proper psychological autopsy is conducted, it is usually fairly easy to see why they chose to exit the planet earth, and it more often than not is their perceived inability to cope with parents, friends, relationships, or extenal pressures and NOT because they didn't take their Xanax or Zoloft for the day. Chris is RIGHT!

JP Thanks!

nor do people become gay because of a "gay gent",

I'm sure a few have ; )

Chris and JP- have you had a suicide in your family? I have. Both of you don't have a clue. Don't judge till you have walked in their shoes. The brain is still, even in today's advanced science, the least known part of our bodies. Your comments validate that! Your comments are hurtful and calloused. Until you have had some first hand experience, don't bother shooting off your mouths. Depression is a serious illness that is still largely a mystery. I agree with the overall criticism regarding "profit" stigma on health care. Nonetheless, Depression, like diabetics and other diseases, still need to be pursued.

PS- Thanks RealAmericansFirst for your dose of common sense. Afraid it is lost on JP and Chris...

Chris and JP- have you had a suicide in your family? I have. Both of you don't have a clue. Don't judge till you have walked in their shoes

Uh, pretty hard to "walk in the shoes" of someone who has killed themselves. Literally impossible, there, sport.

And you have no idea what anyone on these boards' personal experiences may be. Who knows, maybe our attitudes are due to watching someone who was deemed "depressed" by the medical industry drugged into a muddled stupor and completely changed from who they were. You tell us not to judge and then go do the same yourself. Hypocrite.

Stand on your soapbox and tell that to the parent's of the kids who have committed suicide for one reason or another. I'm sure they'll be totally convinced by YOUR theory!

As someone who has suffered from clinical depression for years, let me tell you this.

No amount of therapy and / or pills will make a person happy. Their only recourse is to find whatever it is in their lives that is holding them down and overcome it. Some don't want to put in the effort, others are unable to alone.

Personally, I think psychiatry and its "medications" have a long way to go. You ever listen to a clinical depression drug's advertisements? You'll hear something like: "while the cause is unknown..." so I don't understand how we can even test for something (much less treat it) for something as complex as a mental disorder, when we don't even know the cause.

theres a lot of opinion on this thread so far, but far more misinformation...i find chris's posts particular troubling...

trying to characterize the behavior of a teenager is like trying to predict which direction a moth is going to fly. ... any type of behavioral analysis is bound to turn up some sort of "abnormality" ...

Certainly teenager's behavior tends to fluctuate much more than adults'. However, even within a large range, there exists extremes. A teen who is happy one day and morose the next may be perfectly healthy. However, if this teen becomes socially withdrawn for an extended period, exhibits self mutilating ("cutting") and/or has suicidal ideation/attempts---that's probably abnormal and *may* need medication

Most teens will do fine if you just leave them the hell alone and stop trying to make them act like they're 35 instead of 15.

Ive bolded the key word here...most. I tend to agree with that statement. My rhetorical response would be: how many teens who would be fine either way should we treat to prevent one suicide?

But if you for one second believe that these conditions aren't massively overdiagnosed purely for profit by the medical and pharmaceutical industries

You are suggesting a conspiracy of massive proportions. You are suggesting that there is a multinational agreement among physicians and pharma agencies to put out false criteria in the DSM and invent therapies for mutual profit. Wow. Since docs don't get extra money for prescribing drugs, im not sure I see the benefit for them--especially not in countries like England with socialized medicine and virtually NO financial motive to either see patients or prescribe meds. However, contrary to your theory, antidepressents are still widely prescribed and taken in these countries

And there are multiple studies which support the benefits of antidepressents. These studies are both industry supported AND independent (either NIH funded or investigator initiated)

Theres a lot of evidence against your theory....what do you have to support it?

ruken,

we use many medications and therapies without knowing completely how they work--just that they do. Electroshock therapy is one example...many anesthetic agents are another.

Same for diseases...we might not completely understand the pathophysiology, which is the case for MOST diseases, believe it or not, but we still have some therapies that have been clinically proven to be effective

Chris, you are a fuc*tard. Brad is talking about being a survivor of someone in his family killing themselves. My dad killed himself. You are an idiot. Pure and simple. Of all topics for you to be on to spread your bs around. seriously, go blow yourself. How this vine (any admins???) can let @!$%#s like you say such horrific things on such a painful subject is beyond me.

You are suggesting a conspiracy of massive proportions. You are suggesting that there is a multinational agreement among physicians and pharma agencies to put out false criteria in the DSM and invent therapies for mutual profit. Wow

I know, that's completely unheard of. I mean, that would be like some crazy hypothetical scheme where banks and lenders cooked up variable-interest loans and approved them to subprime borrowers, and then huge multinational financial institutions bought these subprime loans in huge packages and used them to back securities and hedge funds, and made tons and tons of money by overstating credit ratings on derivatives counterparties. But no, they'd never do THAT, because that would cause a risk to your average Joe on the street. He might lose his house or retirement when the house of cards collapsed. But noooo, large corporations NEVER do that. They always think about the good of the individual citizen, right?

Please. Don't be naive. If you think this "one hand washes the other" mentality was limited to the financial sector, you're hopeless.

we use many medications and therapies without knowing completely how they work--just that they do.

Depends on the brain. I tried three different medications, and nothing worked.

The only thing that worked was me getting over it in my own time.

I'm leaning more Chris and JP's way...and since I was "depressed" as a teen, I suppose I speak from experience?

Ultimately, thats why kids have parents...to pay attention, to help them when they are suffering...and to be there if all the kid needs is someone to listen to them...and yet, most kids dont feel like their parents are people they can turn to, people they can trust, people who'll understand...

I have no doubt that my parents knew I was depressed as a teen, I just dont think they knew what to do about it...and medication, absolutely was not the answer.

I knew since an early age that I was gay, and by the time I hit high school I had not a single doubt. But I was scared to tell my parents, terrified they would hate me or disown me, would not love me, would not want me...

Short of my parents saying "we know you are gay, and we love you no matter what"...I cant think of how I would have possibly talked about my emotional turmoil with them.

It wasnt until spring break my senior year that my dad said exactly that thing to me...and while I was already seeing the light at the end of the tunnel (high school was ending, I would be 18 and I could go as far away as I wanted to if i wanted to)...that meant so much to me it's hard to put into words.

In Hindsight, my fears about my parents/family were irrational...but having an older brother who harrassed me and taunted me about suspecting I was gay, and saying all sorts of awful things to me regarding that...reinforced that I was not in a safe place to be honest about my feelings and emotions.

Loneliness is horrible. Being a teen, and horrifically lonely and feeling like there isnt a person in the world who is on your side...is the worst feeling.

and if your kid committs suicide, there's only one place to look - the mirror.

and meds dont fix loneliness...they dont fix that feeling of being unloved. even if they mask the worst of it, they dont cure it.

no doubt, there are some kids and adults who's brains are absolutely messed up and need medication, but I believe those cases are obvious as can be...the rest, are simply spiralling emotions...where kids get trapped in this place of no hope, no hope at all...and thats not bad brain wiring, thats the message a kid gets over and over and over again based on the things happening around them.

choose meds as the last resort, not the first option - that is simply LAZY PARENTING.

I have said this before, but I will say it again: Scientists do not make much money. Especially not working at a University (this study came out of Northwestern). You couldn't bribe anybody with the kind of money most get paid. To say they are fixing these studies out of greed is absurd. These researchers were not even testing new drugs. They were testing a test.

To those of you who are complaining that depression is normal in teens and that they will just grow out of it, that is true in some cases. That condition is not considered clinical depression, and should not be treated in the same way. However, chronic, severe depression exists as surely as diabetes (another "hormonal" disease), and it has sympotoms that distinguish it from more transient changes in mood. But the difference between the two is sometimes hard to spot. That is why we have trained professionals to make the diagnosis. Even then, it is sometimes hard to make the deterimination. Which is why we are developing genetic and hormonal tests. Which was the point of the paper you are complaining about.

chris,

not only is the situation youre describing not a conspiracy, BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DEPRESSION!!!

Even if I conceded that this was a massive conspiracy (which I certainly do not), you still have not proven anything resembling a conspiracy regarding psychiatry, nor did you address any of the other points I brought up in my post...

Not necessarily. I was severely depressed, but my parents did not have a clue until I was forced to tell them at 15. I was of the small subset that instead of dropping everything and hiding away, took on more and more things to bury the pain away that way. I 'put on a smile' and forced myself to keep going in front of them, because I didn't trust them. So, it's a nice notion, and I would guess that many cases could be caught this way, but not all.

As a teenager, my best friend was depressed. He had some of the most loving and supportive parents I knew. He was one of the most popular guys in high school. When he told me he had depression, I was shocked, because both his own behavior and his life circumstances would have led me to pin him as the LAST person I knew who would be depressed. There are environmental factors for sure, but sometimes people just have a disease, and no amount of parenting can fix that. Sometimes, blaming the parents for the kid's depression is like blaming the parents when a kid gets cancer. If they smoked all the time around their kid and intentionally or negligently exposed them to carcinogens, sure, they're partly to blame. Sometimes, it's no fault of their own.

Music Girl - just out of curiosity, what were you depressed about?

perhaps this is where the divide exists...kids who are depressed over real, tangible things...

and kids who are just depressed over - well - everything and anything, for no logical reason at all.

and just out of curiosity...would medication have been better, or having someone you could trust to work through your emotions have been better?

Jessica - You just pointed out one of the key differences between common shifts in mood and clinical depression. Clinical depression often does not have an external source. The sufferer is not depressed about something, or even anything, they are just depressed.

Also, there is no reason why medication and therapy are mutually exclusive. The combination of antidepressants, which are pretty harmless by medication standards, and therapy have been shown to be muh more effective that either one alone.

Chris, I don't think you're so far off the mark. Exercise does have countless benefits, but I think the bottom line is if you feel bad physically, you are more likely to feel bad mentally. People who are out of shape and feed their bodies nothing but junk very well could be more at risk for depression.

You bring up hunter-gatherers, and that is an interesting point. HGs have less stress and perform less work than industrialized societies. They spend roughly 20-30 hours a week performing duties necessary for food, shelter, etc, but the rest of the time is devoted to leisure. That's not bad. And they don't have to deal with being tied to a desk or office, traffic, bills, media, etc.

With all that being said, I think many people are depressed because they don't know how or refuse to cope with stress and negativity. Nowadays, you always hear "it's not your fault" "it's out of your control" "someone else is to blame". It's no wonder people don't take responsibility for their lives and feelings. It's not easy to cope sometimes but it can be done. In my opinion, very few people actually need long-term medication to stay level and not-depressed. I personally was diagnosed with depression as a teenager and then bi-polar as a young adult and took medication for years until I got tired of it and decided I wanted to learn to manage my emotions and my life. That's what I did and I haven't taken medication in nearly 7 years. Maybe not everyone can do it, but I'd be willing to bet most could.

Excuse me, but since when do life events no longer play a role in emotions? Genetic markers may be able to predict who is at risk, but they are never going to be the whole story.

chris,

what shoots a giant hole in your theory is that many depressed patients are of normal weight, and many obese patients do not suffer from depression.

While it has been shown that exercise can improve mood, I think it is less clear from the evidence that the inverse is true (common sense would say it is)

But clearly, obesity and depression is far from a direct causal relationship, and plainly does not tell the whole story for most people

edwin

most everything is some combination of nature and nuture...no one is denying that by pointing out some genetic markers that may code for a predisposition to depression. Even in the article it says that some life event is necessary to trigger the depression symptoms

Chris has a point. First, depression is heavily correlated with obesity, and there does appear to be a causal relationship.

That relationship, however, could just as easily be the opposite of the one Chris proposes. It has been shown that depression causes reduces activity levels, which could easily explain the correlation.

Also, the correlation between obesity and depression does not even come close to explaining all cases of depression.

And Eric - You misinterperted the article. The scientists did not say that a life event is necessary to trigger depression, they said that a life event is capable of triggering it. This does not mean depression is always, or even frequently, triggered by some life event.

ham,

First, depression is heavily correlated with obesity, and there does appear to be a causal relationship.

Even strong correlation does not automatically imply causation...whats your evidence of a causal relationship? whats your plausible biological mechanism? Whats your explanation for the huge number of obese people who are NOT depressed?

Again, swiping a huge brush of correlation is not quite good enough

And Eric - You misinterperted the article. The scientists did not say that a life event is necessary to trigger depression, they said that a life event is capable of triggering it. This does not mean depression is always, or even frequently, triggered by some life event.

No. They never used the word "capable" either. I went back and read it, and honestly, its pretty vague. Either way, youre being a tad nitpicky. Sure depression can happen without a specific trigger....not really the point of the discussion at all...

You are correct that correlation does not impy cause. An I am not convived that there is a causal relationship, but it does not seem unreasonable. One of the symptoms of depression is a feeling of fatigue, even without physical exertion. As for the biological mechanism, I suspect that depression would interfere with the positive feedback loop created by the endorphins released during exercise. If depression reduces the strength of rewards on behavior, it could easily cause excersice to loose its appeal. I also never intended to imply that most obese people are depressed (or vice versa), and I admit that I should not have used the term "heavily" when describing the correlation between obesity and depression.

The point I was trying to make about events causing depression was that depression is not necessarily triggered by a specific life event. But you are right, it is beside the point. And it was kind of picky of me.

Due to the nature of the family tree, we have Bi-Polarism, Schizophrenia, Major Depression, Major Anxiety, PTSD

Sounds more like you guys all have the "I NEED ATTENTION" disorder.

Anyone who seems to take inordinate pride in a family history of mental illness (nice screenname, "cindyscrazy") probably loves to feed off the attention lavished on them by the doctors and pharmacists. Ever heard of Munchausen syndrome?

Nice try :-)

No, I do not love to go to the doctor, I avoid them as much as possible. I once had a nurse practitioner disregard my abdominal pain because I take an anti-depressant. Turns out I had a tumor. It's not cancerous, so I'm not too worried about it. I don't take pride in my family history. I take notice of it. Everyone should know their family medical history. If my grandmother had breast cancer, I might want to do some self checks more often. Same thing with mental health and drug abuse. It does run in families sometimes. I haven't had a drink or drug since 1992, because I know I have an addictive personality.

I agree some people do want the attention, especially adolescents. I'm trying to walk the line between coddling/enabling and seeming to not care with my daughter. Her father died unexpectedly last year (methadone overdose), so I'm the only parent in the picture.

Cindy,

Don't listen to Chris. My ex was bipolar and I know what it's like to live with one. We used to talk all the time how it was difficult for others to see the pain and anguish.

One of my college professors used to tell us, "never underestimate the pain that someone is in because you'll never know".

At the same time, certain mental illnesses can be controlled with will power, inner strength and figuring out the patterns and how to deal with them. Not everyone needs medication and medication won't work for everyone.

Tell your daughter to stand tall and teach her to focus her strength on running the illness, not the illness running her.

As for Chris, I do all I can to stay away and not insult people on these vines, buy you truly are an A$$hole.

Yes, Cindy, don't listen to anyone who doesn't give you the sympathy and positive attention you crave.

Quit being an enabler, Tiggle.

Right, because everyone with a mental illness or who loves someone with a mental illness is exaggerating or making it up for attention. Nobody has a legitimate neurochemical imbalance, which is influenced by genes, which - gasp! - run in families. No, since you haven't experienced an emotional problem that couldn't be controlled by changing your behavior or your environment, that must be true for everybody. Kind of like how I had a fever one time, and it went away on its own, so nobody actually gets infections that require antibiotics to cure, they're just being wimps and looking for attention.

Now you went too far, Chris.

Before you pass judgment on someone, you should know something about them, or at least something about what you are judging them on. Anxiety, depression, bi-polar dissorder, and PTSD are very commonly seen within a single person, and almost always seen together in a family. Schizophrenia is also a fairly common disorder in such families. In fact, bi-polar disorder is often thought of as the combination of depression and a schizophrenia-like syndrome.

By your own admission, Chris, you are in no way an expert on psychology, behavior, or neuroscience. I am, and let me tell you that intro to psych basically teaches you jack about neuroscience, at least compared to what is understood by professionals. To say that this woman is a whiner is equivalent to telling some one with Alzhiemer's to pay more attention, or telling someone with Parkinson's to sit still.

Rational discussion is fine. Mocking someone because their kid tried to commit suicide is EVIL.

Rational discussion is fine. Mocking someone because their kid tried to commit suicide is EVIL.

No, it's not, it's just trying to jerk the blindfold off her eyes. Teens who "try" to commit suicide are not trying to kill themselves; they're dramatically trying to make everyone see what a dark, tortured soul they are that no one understands because THEY'VE never experienced anything as profound as teenaged angst.

The teens who are actually depressed don't "try" to kill themselves. They succeed.

I'm sorry, Chris, but to believe that all suicide attempts are just angsty cries for help is absolutely ludicrous.

I have Borderline Personality Disorder and Major Depression, and have all my life. I had an EXTREMELY tumultuous adolescence and only wish that someone would have seen it earlier and helped ease some of that suffering. Instead, it was called a 'phase' that I would eventually grow out of. I'm almost 27, and still struggle with this disease.

Do I feel that depression is over-diagnosed and over-medicated? Sure. However, there are many, many people out there that NEED help and medication. Should we throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater and declare all psychiatry a sham? I shudder to think of the suffering that would cause.

The blood test this article is describing is trying to PREVENT false diagnosis, trying to separate out those who require medication versus those who need help adjusting. I should think this would make you happier.

They do. Nutrition is well recognized as a contributing factor to mood disorders. That doesn't mean it is the only factor. Its like saying that playing sports causes concussions. It does, but it is not the only thing that can give you a concussion.

Telling someone to not be depressed is like telling someone, "change your eye color". It just doesn't work that way. There are natural patterns of biorhythms, circumstance, hormones, nutrition (as mentioned above) etc. that all play a part in one's behavior and moods.

No, telling someone not to be depressed is NOT like telling someone to change their eye color. It's like telling someone to change their exercise habits, circumstances, and nutrition.

Need to get a better sleep cycle going? Exercise more. Need to feel better about your appearance? Exercise more. Not happy with your home life? Change it. Find someone new or get help to fix what's wrong. You're fat and eat crap? Stop it.

These are all things within your control. Depression is within your control. But people don't want to hear that. They want their hand held and someone to hand them a magic pill that will fix all their problems. Life sucks people. Work harder to make it suck less, and you'll see improvement.

That said, there are some things that you just can't help that might warrant antidepressants... you know, like cancer. But short of that, quit bitching and take responsibility for your own life and your own sense of well-being.

Telling someone to not be depressed is like telling someone, "change your eye color". It just doesn't work that way. There are natural patterns of biorhythms, circumstance, hormones, nutrition (as mentioned above) etc. that all play a part in one's behavior and moods.

Depends.

"Feeling depressed" is not clinical depression.

Also, while Chris may seem direct, in the post above mine he nails a few correct points.

chris,

you ignore some of the major findings of the biologic basis of depression. Things like a serotonin or dopamine deficiency. How can you "will" you body to produce more neurotransmitter?

I knew someone with depression. He had an excellent home life, tons of friends who were a good influence, and was the type of person to totally take responsibility for his emotions. He exercised regularly and ate well. He did everything you suggested, Chris, to make yourself less depressed.

He still nearly killed himself three times.

Sometimes, there's just something wrong, physically, with your brain. And no amount of "taking responsibility" can change that.

Could you imagine if they did try? A lot of people would be out of work, or wouldn't have insurance.

The American's with Disabilities Act and equal employment prevents this. Also, genetic testing is EXPENSIVE. Employers would be insane to screen every employee. Really people, think a little before posting and stop looking at everything as a conspiracy.

when did anyone say "force?"

As a teenager, I felt depressed sometimes. More often than most of my peers. But I knew I didn't have depression - I was just moody and melodramatic.

My best friend was a teenager who had depression. He had everything in place for him to be happy, he did everything he could to try to pull himself out of it, and he still felt like every day was hopeless, for almost a year straight. Every. Single. Day. Even when he did things he enjoyed, even when he should have been "happy", he was just unable to feel that emotion. I saw the difference. Trust me, it's a big one.

Jeez, just have a few beers and you'll feel better.

Might be self-medicating but it sure as hell is cheaper than a scrip.

I do occasionally have a couple of drinks, for fun. Never as medication though, alcohol is a depressant. Coffee is much more attractive, it's a stimulant and sometimes it's nice to have the energy that goes with it. But I must be careful with it too. All that lovely energy can fuel anxiety in unpleasant ways. I am careful of the choices I make and try to be as responsible as I can. My previous post describes where I was in my late teens, I haven't been there in years. I have since learned to challenge my negative thoughts. Feelings aren't facts.