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People intending to leave their bodies to science might find they bump up against weight limits, especially given America's growing girth.
It’s a rare day when Richard Drake turns down a dead body, but last week, he had no choice.
At 6-foot-1 and 350 pounds, the deceased in question was simply too big for the Cleveland Clinic Body Donation Program, which provides specimens for anatomy classes at the Lerner College of Medicine and elsewhere.
“Someone that’s shorter and carrying a lot of weight, that is a problem,” said Drake, director of anatomy and a professor of surgery. “The storage is one issue, but when you are obese, there’s a lot of tissue everywhere. The students don’t get as good a learning opportunity.”
Reluctantly, Drake informed the dead man’s family he’d have to turn down the donation request because their loved one exceeded the size limits for medical research.
“They understood that, because, actually, they had tried a few other places,” Drake said. “They were sort of checking around.”
In a country where more than a third of adults are obese, the impact of extra weight extends, it seems, even beyond death.
Officials at some whole body donation programs in the United States tell msnbc.com they’ve turned away corpses that are too fat for scientific study. Others say the bigger issue is that potential donors simply don’t sign up once they learn of weight limits that can be as low as 170 pounds, but generally top out at 300 pounds.
“Family members, or the person themselves, sometimes they’re a little taken aback,” said Stephen D. Anderson, coordinator of the Willed Body Program at the University of Louisville School of Medicine in Kentucky. “They didn’t assume there were any restrictions.”
That surprise could be a problem, considering that a 2004 Johns Hopkins School of Medicine study found that about half of adults surveyed would consider donating their bodies to science.
But officials at the university-affiliated programs that supply perhaps 10,000 to 15,000 dead bodies each year to the nation’s nearly 140 medical schools say that weight and height limits are an unavoidable part of the process.
“The embalming process adds considerable weight. Generally, a 250-pound person might weigh 350 to 400 pounds when embalmed,” said Richard Dey, professor and chairman of the Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy at West Virginia University in Morgantown. His program receives about 275 bodies a year and turns away at least a few.
To be frank, bodies taller than about 6-foot-4 or heavier than about 300 pounds simply don’t fit on the trays that are sometimes stacked six high in the coolers where the deceased are kept, experts say.
It can be difficult for technicians to handle huge corpses, which have to be lifted and transferred frequently, often by slim technicians or students, said John Lee Powers, curator of anatomical materials at the Brody School of Medicine at East Carolina University in Greenville, N.C. That program limits donors to between 170 pounds and 180 pounds, though an exceptionally tall donor might be allowed at 190.
“It’s the maximum our equipment will handle,” Powers said.
There’s also the educational aspect to consider. Donated bodies are used primarily for first-year anatomy students, who need to learn how the human body is supposed to look, said Ronn Wade, director of the Anatomical Services Division of the University of Maryland Medical School in Baltimore.
Bioethicist: A final reason to lose weight
“In a perfect world, they’d like to have a perfect body with perfect anatomy -- or near perfect,” said Wade, whose program is among the largest in the nation, with a peak donation of some 1,800 bodies a year.
Studying obesity and other pathologies can come later, once students are familiar with the basics, he added.
Obese bodies are more difficult, time-consuming and unpleasant to study, said Wade, who also heads his state’s anatomy board.
“Basically it’s having to get at the structures you want to see,” he said. “Between the skin and the rest, there’s layers and layers of fat cells.”
Only about a quarter of the bodies Wade receives meet the ideal criteria, he said. Perhaps 5 percent of them are morbidly obese.
Wade generally doesn’t reject them outright. But they won’t be used by medical students in first-year classes. They might wind up as clinical specimens used for practice by paramedics or other medical professionals. Some obese bodies can't be used at all, so they're simply cremated and the remains are returned to the families -- without ever serving any research purpose.
So far, medical schools are still able to get enough lean bodies for students to use, experts said. Some programs use corpses from for-profit tissue brokers, which are loosely regulated and supply an unknown number of bodies each year.
Still, considering America’s growing girth, some experts are worried about the future.
Anderson, the director of the University of Louisville program, says he can’t use about 10 percent of the 175 to 200 bodies donated each year because of size problems.
He said he’s thought about upping the program’s weight limit from 200 pounds to 250 pounds to ensure a steady supply.
“If we keep it at 200, we may see that we’re turning down potential donors because of that,” he said.
Having to turn down any willing donor is a shame, said Drake, the Cleveland Clinic expert who is also an officer with the American Association of Anatomists. He doubted the family of the 6-foot-1, 350-pound man would find a program to accept his remains. Instead, they likely had to make other arrangements for the man’s disposition.
“It is an emotional thing,” he said. “People really do want to do this.”
That was the case for the mother of Tara Parker-Pope, a New York Times health reporter who recently wrote about the struggle to lose weight and keep it off, both in her own family and in the population at large.
“My mother died of esophageal cancer six years ago,” Parker-Pope wrote. “It was her great regret that in the days before she died, the closest medical school turned down her offer to donate her body because she was obese.”
Those who leave their remains to science tend to be sensitive folks interested in enhancing the public good, said Wade, the Maryland expert who has promoted whole body donation for more than 35 years.
At the end of a life perhaps spent struggling with weight, learning they’re too heavy to fulfill those altruistic wishes can be devastating.
“It’s kind of another stigma,” said Wade. “They kind of feel victimized.”
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Leave a Comment:
If I was donating my body, I'd prefer it be used for retrieving and reusing blood, organs, and other body parts, which is what the donors would actually like, rather than just being cut up for education. High quality 3D computational visualizations can perhaps be developed and used for the university lab rooms, at least as a partial substitute. Also, don't forget - donation begins with blood - you can donate blood many times a year, unless you are excluded for some reason. I do.
There are very many limitations to donating ones organs. For one, you have to die in a certain way...you have to be brain dead. You must be kept alive on machines or your organs won't be viable. Very few people actually die this way. Also, even if you are brain dead and able to donate, your organs must be healthy. With 2/3 of Americans being obese or overweight, not everyone who dies has healthy organs. For most people, the only option will be to donate their body to science if they want to donate.
AB: people who donate their bodies in this way know what their body will be used for. There is a difference b/w this process and organ donation. Having gone through med school and used both 3d computer programs and actual cadavers, I can tell you as gory as cadaveric dissection is, it's an indispensible part of the learning process. There is no substitute for actually touching and following a nerve or muscle from origin to insertion. That's what 3d programming lacks, the tactile aspect - you can't pick up a 3d sim and look at it and move it around.
As to your other comments about blood and organ donation, more power to you! I totally agree! I'm excited to be eligible to donate again since I've passed my 1 year mark since going to a malaria zone. Another important area of donation that could save a life is bone marrow. All it takes to get on the marrow registry is a few drops of blood, and donation of marrow stem cells is done through blood as well - no bone drilling required!
As a medical student that has used both cadavers and high quality 3D computational visualizations - I can tell you cadavers are better. Physically doing the dissection, moving parts, etc., helped me remember the anatomical relationships. Anatomical relationships are extremely important - for example, knowing the relationship between the duodenum and the gastroduodenal & inferior pancreaticoduodenal arteries makes it easier to anticipate potential complications of a duodenal ulcer. It was much easier to learn this relationship with the cadaver than the computer programs.
Some donors are like you - they'd rather their parts go toward helping living patients. Others would rather their parts go toward education - helping future doctors learn how to help living patients (sometimes with the parts that donors like you donate). Essentially - both types of donation are helpful and necessary.
I can say first hand that nothing compares to a real body. No computer 3D simulation will be as good as the real thing. There is more to a human body than juts 3D. A simulator will not reproduce texture, smell, and other things that while gross to some, is a fact of life when dealing with bodies, living or dead.
Hmmmm....they only want the students to examine bodies in near perfect condition? Why? If they want perfect models, why not get reusable dummies?People in near perfect condition don't usually go to the Dr.; it is people who are in far from perfect condition, that they SHOULD be studying. (Yes, even from day one.)
Blondeness, you have missed the point. How can you tell what is abnormal and restore normal function unless you study how the body is supposed to work? First year medical students are learning the NORMAL anatomy of the body in order to learn where each organ is supposed to go and how everything is connected and works in health. What if someone gave you a car that had been in a terrible accident and asked you to make it right, and you had never seen a normal, functioning car? Would you be able to fix it?
blondeness032: You must know normal before you can understand pathology or variations. To learn about medicine is a huge endeavor - it encompasses a vast body of science that gets larger by the year. If one doesn't know what normal is, then it makes it harder to spot abnormal.
'd rather have a doctor performing on me as a living person who has first studied a cadaver, rather then some doctor bumbling around and causing me more harm than good.
Nothing will ever replace hands on experience. On that note, I'm donating my body to the Body Farm when I die.
“The embalming process adds considerable weight. Generally, a 250-pound person might weigh 350 to 400 pounds when embalmed,” so if you die you gain 100 to 150 pounds? All that without having the fun of the food and booze. Crap.
I don't get it. We are a nation of fata$$es. Nearly 70% of americans are overweight or obese, so most likely these doctors-in-training will have to see a lot of fat patients over the course of their careers. So why not get accustomed to it now rather than later?
Because, if you read the article, the beginning med students must first be able to learn the basics and be able to easily find the organs they are looking for as well as structures. It is hard to do that on an obese corpse. You learn on what's easiest....a close-to-anatomically perfect body. The person even said they sometimes can use the obese corpses for more advanced students who know the basics well. Or for EMT students and others.
I was told by a med student that said she wants to be a surgeon some day, that cutting through at least a foot deep of body fat just to get at the organs isn't easy. It's a matter of practicality. She told me, as students you want to do it once in a great while to get exposure to doing surgery on patients this massively huge, but for most adult Americans, even though half are very obese, thankfully, most just aren't that double or triple-wide for their girth.
The old cadaver is what separates the men from the boys. You start on cadavers the first semester of med school - my son said many didn't show up to class after day one on a real human.
My first job was cleaning up surgery rooms - when a large person was operated on, it was my job to pull the doctors arms out from under the patient after they got them on the table.
Many lawyers can tell you options for your dead body when you do a Will, that's the route I went...my wife or son should clear about $2000 when I go, sure beats a last minute car wash to pay to send you off.
I signed up with a co. that will pick my body up wherever my wife tells them. I think they either lease or sell the body to a research facility and when they're done they cremate the body and return the remains to her. I do realize they could be returning the ashes of a dog or kangaroo or sasquash, but hey who cares, when all said and done it cost my family 00000.00. You just can't beat that price!
First.. near perfect bodies being considered normal.. hmmm. seems the normal body is having some weight to it not some bulimic skin and bones body.. but, hey they want what they want.
The thing that strikes me is that some people turn to offering their bodies to science because they cannot afford to be cremated or buried? There is something very wrong in this country when it cost so much to die.
2.5 million people die Iam sure some "normal" people will fit the bill.
Joy there are alot of sad things in the world and being lazy, fat , and cheap is becoming the norm for the USA. You can be cremated for under $4,000 and death insurance is cheap cheap cheap.
what_the_81
I agree. If we have a nation of overweight people, then doctors and students need to start studying overweight corps and learn how to combat obesity in America.
What_the_81, you are absolutely right in your comment. Doctors and students that want to become doctors need to get use to the chubby one's that come into their offices.
Arieus,
Removing layers and layers and layers of fat just to get to the pectoral muscle or wading around in layers of subcutaneous tissue just to find an important nerve simply brings frustration to a medical student trying to learn it for the first time and adds nothing valuable to the learning experience. For students who are fortunate enough to be stuck with such cadavers, it'll take them longer to finish their dissections, it won't be as clean, and it'll be difficult to study from for the practicals.
Usually, when I'm doing something for the first time though, being faced with difficult challenges can make the end result more rewarding. And this is pretty cynical, but they are already dead, how much damage can a first year student do? Better to make mistakes now and learn from them rather than make the mistakes when there is a living person on the operating table.
Usually, when I'm doing something for the first time though, being faced with difficult challenges can make the end result more rewarding. And this is pretty cynical, but they are already dead, how much damage can a first year student do? Better to make mistakes now and learn from them rather than make the mistakes when there is a living person on the operating table.
Challenges are to be appreciated when they provide a valuable learning experience to the individual who undertakes them. There's very little learning experience to be found in scrapping off adipose tissue. It's a slow, tedious, monotonous work. Whatever "learning experience" one can possibly garner from this is immediately dwarfed by the value of time wasted.
When I die, I'm leaving my brain with the entire GOP. IQ at 140+, that should raise all their intelligence by 1 IQ point. "If breathing wasn't automatic, those idiots would have suffocated, long, long ago." ME
I JUST did a living donation of my body to research for life when i pass i will be the only one to do this in my family i have told all of them about this and told them i did not want to be a burden so i did it and all i want is for my family to see me one time before they start there work on my body. then i will be cream mated and my ashes will be tossed in the sea. with the cost of funerals today it is a finance thing as well .
I hope they have better grammar than you.
need to break it... every now and then...with them dot thingy's...for us who cant ...reed r' rite...or spell purfict...
In a related article the same schools are also rejecting the stupid from consideration. They state that they not only need a fully developed brain, but a brain that has actually been used to it's fullest extent.
oh well...i didn't want... to go there anyway...
I too am thinking cremation. I lost my 35 year old daughter to suicide. Her funeral in Chicago cost me $16,200. I also think these medical students should have to learn on fatter people. Most of their patients will most likely be over weight. I think medical schools should change the way bodies are handled and stored.
I too am thinking cremation. I lost my 35 year old daughter to suicide. Her funeral in Chicago cost me $16,200. I also think these medical students should have to learn on fatter people. Most of their patients will most likely be over weight. I think medical schools should change the way bodies are handled and stored.
fll: Sorry about your baby:( Prayers for you...
Thank You sorry for the double post.
fll thats like saying we need bilingual teachers in school.
Need to stop treating the symptons and treat the problem.
example:
Have regional schools that teach nothing but english and US history. Child can't speak English put them into the regional school for 1-2 years until the child learns enough english to go back to regular school.
Being fat is a condition that can be treated and shouldn't be catered too.
Iam not a small guy 6-2 220lbs but Iam not some 6-2 500lb guy sucking disability off the gov't because I ate myself to death.
We need to fix this country not placate to the problems.
**jumps off soapbox**
When I was in physical therapy school, we had to disect a cadaver. My partner picked the one she thought was best. She came over, wrote the number down and then showed me the one she had picked. Our cadaver was so big that the lid wouldn't close on the tank! I can't tell you how many EXTRA HOURS we spent in the lab, by ourselves, picking out fat because we had to get to the things we would be tested on. Individual fat cells look like kernel corn. Everyone's body is put together a little differently, but things are still in the general area. Hands on is the best teacher.
randy- REALLY?!?!?! Ur small narrow-minded mentality has u thinking that people r fat because they choose to b? They choose to sit around sucking disability off the government??? They r gonna eat themselves to death??? REALLY?!?!?! WOW!!! Its a shame u feel that way! Did u ever stop and think that maybe some obese ppl have a medical condition or conditions in which they r not able to exercise, or their metabolism does not work right??? Maybe they have a thyroid condition, or other endocrine problems, or maybe they have back or joint problems and cant exercise!! Maybe they have tried different diets, meds, and specialists to get help but nothing works. That comment was just rude! What this country needs to do is not placate ignorance! And no, i am not obese, or even overweight, im just sick of stereo-types!!!
How about blaming the problem and not the victims Einstein? Are you aware of the difference in the food that is served today and just 20 years ago? The changes in the food have been made for profit.
If your metab doesn't stay sky high nowadays, you will gain weight eating this food filled with preservatives and other goodies that weren't around before.
Its big business treating fat people and there are some business making nice profits double dipping. Selling you unhealthy fatty foods and deeply invested in the highly profitable and growing; weight loss, miracle pills and training supplements markets.
Ahh the sheeple will always point the fingers at each other. lol
I was skinny most of my life however, when my metab decided to retire early...anything I ate put weight on. I'm not obese, but I'm not the 28" waist person I use to be either. I do have a life also and obsessing about weight training and buying expensive programs that deliver food to me isn't going to be my priority.
Its absolutely amazing at how offering foods that have a lot less of the nutrients in them then before(due to a variety of reasons), sure keep people hungry and eating more.
I tell ya what. You're not getting my body as ill be cremated. IDGAF what you think of me as I'm not here to impress you. Having six pack abs again, doesn't keep me awake at night thinking about it.
I have a life and you self deprecating #$%$# aren't part of it. lol
I had awesome hair most of my life but now, I'm losing it also. I should probably drop 10K or more on a hair transplant too, so I'm a little easier on your eyes for the 2 seconds we might actually pass each other by.
My teeth while clean, have always been crooked. My parents just didn't do the braces thing and well you play the hand you're dealt. I'm talking genetics Einstein by the way. I think I should worry myself to death about this because my crooked teeth make me a bad person and thus, I don't want people judging me by my teeth I mean.......It is my fault my teeth are crooked and its my fault people might judge me by my teeth. I really need to look into getting implants so I can look like what today's male .....is suppose to look like.
Okay, I now have a plan. I'm going to get started on bringing back those six pack abs that are a must have. I mean being quality breeding stock for a female in case I'm ever single again, is top priority.
I'll get right on that skippy. lol
Here is the difference Iam in the know on this subject since I sell health insurance for a living and see this day in and day out. VERY few people are overweight due to medical conditions less than .01%
Stereo types are the norm just like saying black people have wide noses (just example don't get upset). It may offend you but truth is truth whether or not you like it or not.
People in this country need to wake up because the lack of responsibility , lack of self control and lack of education is killing eveyone slowly.
Difference is Justice For Caylee 1 you are making excuses. Do you really think 1/3 of the USA being a fat ass is due to medical conditions LMAO you are clueless my dear, very naive to the real world. I try and help these Morbidly Obese people but 90% of the time its hopeless. And guess what hun if you don't over eat or eat poorly you don't become 100,200,300 lbs overweight.
good day
Daniel from LB, you are suspended for a day for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
What about donations of brains? I want to leave my ill husbands brain to science but obviously he is too heavy for the regular kind. I wonder if they limit those.
Harvard Brain Bank can help you with that.
the brain bank called said... i had insufficient funds...to open an account...
Hopefully his brain weighs less than 300 pounds.
Being obese can affect the brain as well. It can build up around the brain and sort... I don't know... choke it? That might not the be right word. Worth looking in to, certainly.
Wow. Never thought of this. My parents' bodies were donated to a medical school, but they were not overweight at all. I have always told my husband to donate mine...but since I have a propensity to eat every cookie in the box (and we just ordered 10 Girl Scout boxes!), I guess I have to figure out something else....the whole funeral and burial routine always seemed such a waste of money and land to me....
Actually, I think that what many may not have understood from this article is what the implications are for LIVE surgery. Surgery is much more difficult on the obese for the same reason that dissections are difficult: the ability to easily see and maneuver internal organs. My mom's been a nurse midwife and labor and delivery nurse for 45 years. She reports very scary stories of difficult C-sections on obese mothers who probably had no idea that their weight was a factor that actually put their, and their child's, life at risk during surgery.
You sound (look) like a caring and life loving person. I doubt you are morbidly obese.
Have you seen the size of most nurses lately
Thanks, OhJoy. Maybe I am not morbidly obese, but I am probably just over the line for most corpse donation programs...but I still don't understand why medical students would not also need to practice with obese bodies, since they will certainly have patients who are obese.
If you tell me your height and weight I can tell you if you are or are not morbidly obese.
homesick yank - the article said the most advanced students, as well as EMT's practice on all body types, including the obese. But for first year students, they need to learn what normal looks like, in order to spot any abnormalities.
Also, it's not just a matter of the students needing practice on a normal body, the equipment can't handle bodies of that size. There are storage and moving costs, plus people actually have to do the lifting and carrying. An extra hundred pounds or even more makes a big difference.
Thoughts on the article in general: On another note, we as a country should be doing more to stop the rise of obesity. (Not just curves, because those are fine). But there is a middle ground between anorexic and morbidly obese, and we need to find it. It's just a lazy excuse to say "Well, the country's getting fatter, everything needs to change to accommodate it." Like it or not, there are biologically proved acceptable ranges of body weight, just because more people are obese doesn't make it normal.
I'm a little surprised by the school with the 170 weight limit. I weigh about 165 and would not even be considered overweight at 170-175 based on my height. Having done cadaveric dissection during my own med school years, I think that's a little overboard. We had several donors who's bodies were well over 250 and this did not ruin the educational experience. I can understand having upper limits, but 170 is a little ridiculous.
I agree. One of the cadavers in our lab was much larger than 170. He was probably closer to 300 lbs.
Actually, the article said the weight parameters are between 170 and 300. Anything above 300 is where the difficulty arises.
lawful1: That's not exactly what the article said. They are talking to several different centers that deal with these donations. One of them in the article does state they have a weight limit of 170 - 180, but might take a body up to 190 if they are exceptionally tall. Another has a weight limit of 200, but is considering increasing the weight limit to 250. There are few (though none were talked to in this article) that had the ability to take bodies above 300 lbs.
According to the obviously incorrect height/weight charts, at a hair under 6'4", my son in in the "overweight" category at 205 lbs. He's actually quite thin. It seems that rather than having a weight ceiling for donation, there should be proportion allowances.
Thank You for your post
You would think they would want fat bodies. They have to learn to work on them since there are so many fat people in the world.
Well, like they said in the article - we need to learn normal first THEN we can learn about abnormal, pathological, etc. Anatomy in medical schools is a first year class - often the first semester.
Actually, fat is the norm in America - not other countries.
Hate to say it, Summer, but it seems now the overweight ARE the norm, the thin and healthy are the abnormal. Guess that kinda messes up THAT theory. How about "Learn on the EASY first, THEN learn about the normal."
HDawg: No, it doesn't mess up that theory. While fat may be one of the more common features in the US - it is not normal. Obesity messes up physiology, causes pathology, etc., etc. - thus, it is not normal. Again, we need to learn normal before we can learn pathology, abnormal or variations.
Keep in mind - normal doesn't (always) mean most common when talking about medicine.
Great post Summer! I said something similar upthread, but yours sounds better.
I'm not in the medical field at all, but I will say that if I were taking a class on anatomy, I would prefer to start out on a "normal"/"thin" person if that means it will help make it easier to learn where everything is. I know the article stated that more advanced students(emts) work on the more "obese" cadavers, but maybe it could be a suggestion that maybe once the first time/year students finish their "smaller" cadaver then maybe have them work on a bigger person, & as for the storage of the bigger cadavers maybe they could perhaps have another special storage area for them, I'm sure some of those schools can afford it.
If the bodies were in perfect condition, would they be dead?
yes...perfectly dead...
Kent-397891
You should run for office with logic like that
So thats what the Hell's Angels credo means," Live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse" !
Who wants some big fat nasty looking corpse to study. Not too much one needs to know about such an over-sized body, but the fact the owner didn't take care of it like God intended for them to, but instead, put everything under the sun into it through that orifice in their face.
Wow. Because it's really about god. There are lots of reasons someone can be overweight, it's not always because of food or their inability to stop eating it.
Does this mean I have to tell my pastor's wife to stop making her delicious snacks? Cause thats really sad.
Please don't think all Christian's are as backwoods as Bryant. I swear we aren't that bad.
I honestly believe, the chemicals in our foods is one of the main reason we are so fat today. It starts with livestock. Then all the crap in prepared foods to chemicals on mass produced veggies and fruits.
They're fattening us up to make Soylent Green.
Bryant - that was a disgraceful and offensive comment! How dare you presume to know the will of God? How dare you sit in judgement?
KAREN-
Him making the fat people are nasty comment was pretty rude...
But shut up with the god's will, blah blah blah. EVERYONE JUDGES. GROW UP AND WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD, KAREN! Get over it.
Religious nutcases, lemme tell ya...
I plan on giving someone herpes post death. That is what you get for humping me in the freezer when no one is looking necrophiliac dude.
Just dump my body over the fence - let me biodegrade naturally
Yeah, cause thats not a health hazard at all.
leave the tin foil hat on...yard ornament...buzzard feeder...no one will notice...
You have heard of the Body Farm, right? I'm forgetting which university it is, but they accept corpses for the purpose of staking them out in the wild to observe how they decay. The research helps forensic law investigation. I mean, if that's the way you REALLY want to go...
Personally, I'll take cremation.
@mkspeaks- I never knew that. c: How interesting. Sounds like an informative (and yucky) field of study.
The University of Tennessee is where the body farm is located. I'm from Colorado and I had read in the newspaper a few summers ago that they were thinking of setting one up here near Grand Junction. The difference in temperature and humidity between TN and CO are huge, it'd be good to see how fast a body decomposes in a dry state with little to no humidity, versus a state that you practically swim in all the time. Plus, our bugs here are different than TN and certain bugs are attracted to different stages of decomp in a body.
The University of Tennessee is where the body farm is located. I'm from Colorado and I had read in the newspaper a few summers ago that they were thinking of setting one up here near Grand Junction. The difference in temperature and humidity between TN and CO are huge, it'd be good to see how fast a body decomposes in a dry state with little to no humidity, versus a state that you practically swim in all the time. Plus, our bugs here are different than TN and certain bugs are attracted to different stages of decomp in a body.
I would never donate my body because if I got into a wreak I would not wont to hear some one say . He is a doner and someone else say Yes he is dead.
Oh please, doctors aren't blood thirsty organ harvesters. They're not going to let you die just so they can scavenge your organs.
So they want skinny cadavers for a better learning experience....because fat people don't get sick and don't need surgery...you would think they would want to give their students a more rounded experience (a more true to life one at that) and have them use all different body types
As explained above (and in the article) students need to be able to recognize normal anatomy, physiology, function, etc. before we can learn about abnormal, or pathological anatomy, physiology, function, etc.
What makes a body normal though? Not one single person has a normal body and anatomy, everyone has abnormalities. And saying obesity isn't physically normal is stupid, being skinny isn't normal either nor healthy.
twister2: Normal means proper function. It's not always what is most common common - but it is what works properly.
Don't get me wrong - I'd rather work w/ an obese cadaver than none at all. However, from experience - dissecting the brachial plexus out very well can take several hours even on a thin cadaver. On an obese cadaver, it can take much, much longer - and because of the higher amount of fat (and that we're talking about 1st year medical students who haven't done much of this work yet), the structures that need to be seen are more likely to be damaged during the dissection process. Basically, obese cadavers aren't ideal for a 1st year medical student's education.
I heard that the Center for Reading Comprehension is accepting body donations from people of all sizes.
"Normal" lies on a continuum, but does not cross over into obesity territory.
You are looking at this scientific issue from a non-scientific standpoint.
I was shocked more than 20 years ago, when I learned that because I had disbetes, they no longer wanted my donated blood. I can see why they want "normal" bodies for education. Hey, you don't train auto mechanics on broken down heaps (even if that's what they will be repairing most of the time).
This is all a ticklish subject because we are still stuck with the feeling that there is something "special" about a dead body. In fact, your dead body will be DEAD! No longer alive. At room temp. Dead. So, why not donate it, for whatever medical use? If they'll take it, that is.
That many people put their families into financial hard times, to dispose of their "remains", is a shame. Anything over $50.00 for a cremation, or $500.00 for a burial is a clear rip off, IMHO. Even if you believe in a "spirit", do you believe that the "spirit" is still in the dead body? No, you do not. So, what's with all the copious throwing away of money, then?
Considering that one person, with a smallish oven, can burn maybe 10 bodies a day, who in the world thinks that $4000.00 figure up there for cremation is reasonable?
I don't know about the laws on cremation but when my dad died in 2000 we had to buy a coffin type container to have him cremated in. We bought the cheapest one there that was a cardboard box that reminded me of a shoe box (my dad would have come charging out of the cold storage if we'd spent any more money on a coffin). That was $180 as I recall. Plus the cremation and a container to get the ashes back. These was pretty much the basics.
You start adding in a possible permit to spread the ashes or a crypt, memorial services or a funeral and it does add up.
Seems like discrimination. Really since, what a third, of you are overweight it would seem that it should help the medical students to deal with real life situations. If the obesiety continutes the over weigth will be the new norm. If you studied a skinny corpse in shcool and are confronted with a 400lb porker in real life it would be nice to have some experience in dealing with the blubber.
170-190 lbs? Please tell me this is just for MALE corpses? "Normal" weight women would not fall into those parameters. I understand the reason why they do not want corpses over 190...after embalming it simply becomes too heavy to easily deal with. I am more curious about why underweight bodies are a problem...?
Seems like you need to stop assuming things and actually read an article before proclaiming your dissatisfaction with it. I just love how some people are so prone to screaming "discrimination!" that they selectively ignore evidence to the contrary.
If you saw a sentence that stated: "obese people were refused due to not being able to fit in the coolers" all you'd see was "obese people were refused because people hate fatties!"
There are many reasons that people become fat,obese or morbidly obese, however I at 5'11" 143 nevr gained wieght even when I wanted to; until I started trying to save money by purchasing cheap processeed food. Wow what a mistake I not only had less energy and stamina but also gained 10lbs in under 1 year. Cut out my T.V. and spent the money on good quality food and in 6 mo. was back to my normal, which by the way is about middle of normal for my hieght despit the fact i am crippled and can't exersize much. IMHO the proccessed foods (which is all some can afford) are cuasing at least in part this epidemic of obesity. Oh and by the way when people tell me I'm too skinny I just luagh and tell them to check the weight chart. I feel bad for anyone whom cannot afford or find good food in their neighborhood.
HAHA! It's about time these fat people were excluded from something. I remember we used to ridicule fat people- and there was a LOT less of them around. Now you can't say anything to them without everyone looking at you like a jerk or even some kind of legal rebuttal. So now these 400lb behemoths are all over the place saying "its the way I am so accept it" and "I tried dieting and nothing worked" when really they should be made fun of to give them some incentive to get into shape.
Fat people: It IS a problem and it is YOUR fault and it's something that can be helped if YOU actually do something about it.
The worst part about it is that EVERYONE has to pay higher medical insurance to cover the costs of the multitude of health problems that these mammoths have because they don't do anything to stay even in halfway decent shape. Smokers get ridiculed & have to pay higher insurance, why not FAT people?
Right, because that's the only reason insurance companies can find to overcharge you...
I find it's more fun to make fun of ignorant people, because they outnumber fat people by at least 5 to 1.
Hey "informed" (rather uninformed) We don't make fun of you being ugly so it isn't okay to make fun of someone because they are fat. Why would you anyway? Truly ugly!!
All this time right now you two could be getting into shape rather than blaming your problems on other people. I already got my workout in this morning, while both of you were probably still fast asleep in your king- sized beds.
And being fat isn't the same is being ugly... being FAT is a CHOICE, tubby.
You are truly a ridiculous, hurtful human being. Give me fat any day, then to be an ugly, hateful person like you. You are the repulsive one here.
You have zero knowledge in regards to why some struggle with their weight, Zero! And it's very sad that some use this forum to perpetuate such hate. Yuck!
Well all I know is that back when the pigs were made fun of, there was a lot more fit people. Now that we're supposed to "accept them for who they are" we have a full blown "obesity" epidemic. Coincidence? I think not.
And every fat person I've ever met has the same problem: Laziness. Every single one I know would rather spend more time coming up with excuses as to why they are what they are rather than to change it.
Ever wonder why fat people get offended when you call them fat, while slender people don't mind if you call them skinny? Because being FAT is NOT normal and you know it.
I really hate to inform you of this but skinny people do not like to be called skinny. People that struggle to put weight "on" are just as sensitive as people who are overweight.
And BTW, how does one like you explain the fact that we have these people who can eat, eat, eat and never gain an ounce? They don't even excersize and yet they are skinny? How can that be, if we are all biologically the same? Now I'm confused...Both can't be truths.
When's the last time you've heard about a "skinny people" epidemic in America?
And it's called a metabolism. Some work faster than others. And just because YOURS doesn't seem to work as well as others, YOU will have to do more work to keep in shape & stay healthy. And since you don't seem to care about being the size of a small car until someone starts calling you out for it, YOU should be paying out higher premiums for medical insurance since being fat has been directly linked to numerous health problems. Don't want to pay those high premiums? Then GET IN SHAPE. Remember, being fat is a CHOICE. No one is forcing you to sit at the computer all day & stuff your face with Baconators. There is absolutely NO excuse for your average American to be looking the way they do these days.
mmm baconators. I'm going to have to disagree with you Informed. I've been thin my entire life, but not because I've worked at it. I have tried gaining weight so often its disgusting. Do you know how hurtful it is when people watch you eat just to make sure you aren't anorexic? Or how people watch you to make sure you don't go to the bathroom to puke it all up because people assume you are bulimic?
There is no "right" weight, and for you to assume that all skinny people are better or happier than big people is outrageous. Maybe if people had attitudes less like yours, then people wouldn't be ashamed of themselves.
Well said and right on "Capt"! I could just kiss you for your thoughtful and wise words.
My "skinny" friend just had triple bypass surgery because his arteries were all clogged up.
Thank-you again for your thoughtful post.
I'm underweight. By choice. and effort. And I've been overweight before. When I was overweight, I was overweight because I ate too much. So I stopped eating too much. I've known a multitude of significantly overweight people, and its all the same: they eat too much and they eat the wrong foods. People gush about my thinness, and say that I can eat whatever I want, that I'm naturally thin. I'm not. I have a normal metabolism: I eat a lot, I get fat. I cut back, I get thin. I'm thorougly fed up with the rampant fat excuses. People want an excuse because it is very hard to cut back on the eating and make better choices, but I realized that the only way I'd get thin was the hard way. If you're fat, 99% of you do not have some metabolic abnormality that makes you turn 2 lettuce leaves and half a cup of fat free cottage cheese into 100 extra pounds of blubber. You are overweight because you eat more calories than you need and you will not be slender until you change that. Period.
Zee if only it were that simple...If it were then diets would work and billions would not be made on an industry that is designed to fail.
You are absolutely incorrect, 99% of us are not the same. That's rediculous.
Informed (ha!): Im not obese but find your comment(s) despicable. Metabolism can be inhibited by any number of things, the lymphatic system being just one. Obseity can be caused by lack of excercise and overeating...sure, but not everything is explained away that easily...case in point, I can not figure out for the life of me why you would name yourself "Informed".
You people are missing my point. I said people who have a slower metabolism (i.e. FAT people) have to work harder to stay in shape. (i.e. watching more closely at what they eat & exercise more often) - I never said slender people were happier or better people.
There will be an exception here & there to the rule but you can't sit there & tell me that it's OK to roll around on a scooter everywhere you go because you're too fat. And that the cost of medical insurance hasn't skyrocketed here because 2 out of every 3 people are overweight.
And the sad part about it is that people like you continue to just write it off like it's no big deal until something happens. Then you want help. Then you go to the doctor. And since you didn't do ANYTHING to stay in shape, the doctors have you come back several times because there are so many things to check that could be wrong with you. And that costs a lot of money. Costs that are passed on to the responsible people who don't need to visit the doctor all the time & have to pay HIGHER premiums to make up the money spent on all of YOUR visits. All because YOU didn't want to take care of yourself. And you don't see anything wrong with this? WOW this country is farther gone than I thought. It's no wonder this country sinking lower than whale sh!t & in a hurry too. Look out Kenya here we come!
Informed: I too believe you are missing my point. Though I may agree that obesity is a huge factor in increasing healthcare costs (as is greed), the point I was making is that it is NOT ok for you to be using terms such as "tubby". It is cruel and unecessary...if you have a case to be made, speak in physiological terms and you may be heard. To resort to schoolyard name calling only shows what a horse's patoot you are...and yes, I too resorted to it.
Sweet AZ: Like Zee said a very minute % of overweight people have those kinds of disorders. It's sheer laziness and poor diet. Period. Stop trying to fool yourself because your family or friends are fat. Take a look around other countries & you'll realize a problem of this magnitude isn't caused by some under active thryroid, genetics, nor is it somehow McDonalds' fault. It's the people's fault, plain & simple. To try and dismiss it is ludicrous.
These people need to be ridiculed to show them that an entire country of overweight slobs is unacceptable. You sure as hell would never make it in the service, boy.
Informed...again, sadly mistaken. Ridicule serves no purpose than to puport being a bully. Make you feel good to know that you have hurt someone? And...for your information, Army 22 years, honorably discharged and ranked an E7 on retirement. Service duty does not have a requirement of ridicule but being a human being should have a requirement of compassion.
Sad thing is, bullies actually get off on their head count of those they hurt. Uninformed will never be able to understand and show compassion, this person is damaged. I am a true believer in Karma and know that bullies are getting theirs sooner or later.
Funny, no one has any problem with concentrated efforts to ridicule and ostracize smokers in order to get them to quit, but do the same to fat people in order to get them to slim down and suddenly everyone's up in arms. Is it because smokers are a minority and fat people are a majority?
oh my goooooood. I have to say that while you are being a little extreme, and while this may sound like bullying, in the end it is something we need to be frank about. Nobody is born obese, instead, people "choose" to be obese (obviously purposefully excluding the extremities, which exist in any situation). Obesity is one of those things that's easier prevented than cured. Once you gain all those extra hundred pounds of fat your body works in many ways against you so that it becomes almost impossible to slim down (you can find a couple of very informing articles on the NYtimes website). It is literally immensely morbid on so many different levels. This isn't something that should be normalized, as another person here said, what is normal isn't necessarily what is common.
Informed, I understand the point you are trying to make but your angry and thoughtless remarks towards overweight/obese individuals are not going to change anything. You claim that a decrease in discriminatory remarks against overweight people corresponds with the increase in the number of overweight people. Yes, because increased eating away from home, larger portions sizes, decreased physical activity related to increasingly sedentary occupations and lifestyles have had nothing to do with it? No, not everyone has become overweight with these environmental changes but bodies do not all work the same. We all know people that can eat whatever they want and yet never seem to gain weight. Likewise, we all know individuals that eat fairly healthy but are on the chubbier side. It truly is a small proportion of the population that has actual, diagnosed medical problems that cause them to be obese. But to say the rest of obese/overweight individuals are just lazy, food-hoarding slobs is ignorant and dismissive.
I work with overweight/obese individuals and will not deny that there is a significant proportion that are lacking in motivation. These individuals are not interested in changing their behaviors, offer up a number of excuses (to justify to themselves and others) why they cannot change, and put forth little effort. But this is not the case for all obese/overweight people! Some people have serious emotional problems related to eating. Some have put forth a great deal of effort in losing weight only to fail time and time again due to poor methods, lack of willpower, or use of incorrect information. Some people are on medications that make them prone to large amounts of weight gain. To say all normal sized individuals are healthy is just as ignorant. I know a number of individuals who eat unhealthy, drink like a fish, and smoke like a chimney who are of a normal weight. They are in no means healthier that someone who leads a healthy lifestyle but is a little overweight. Be thankful you have never had to struggle with weight issues. It can be a very difficult, emotional road. And no, I am no overweight (as this seems to be your retort to everything).
I understand you are unhappy about paying extra in regards to healthcare, but unless you are part of the solution you are part of the problem. Sitting there, b*tching about it isn’t going to change anything. Why not join efforts to fight the ever-increasing obesity epidemic with people in your own life or community? Otherwise keep your unpleasant and uninformed comments to yourself.
Well said MeghanRD.
Informed- A lot of my friends are obese and a lot of them are just overweight. It is in part due to their lifestyles and food choices, but at the same time, they were big babies, bigger than average kids and they grew up to be large adults. They have all since changed their habits and are eating healthier and meeting with personal trainers, but it is a long and difficult road to walk.
Ridicule and nasty names will not motivate anybody (big or small) to change anything about themselves. It does the opposite in fact. They dig in their heels and become resentful and stubborn. Yes, they know the dangers, just like smokers do. They've had this negative and downright mean crap shoved down their throat for years and they are told to enjoy it and benefit from it.
Honestly, tell me how well your negative comments have affected somebody. Do you know an obese person that has responded well to your critisicm? Have they lost weight? I highly doubt it. Try changing your tactics and you might see better results. If it takes coddling someone and holding their hands for them to become healthier, DO IT!
Public humiliation has gone the way of public executions, for a good reason, it doesn't deter the problem!
It's just really hard for some of you to handle the truth isn't it? Am I not using enough euphemisms? Well, let's up those insurance premiums for people that fail to meet their BMI. I'd like to see what you'd have to say when some of you actually have to pay for your poor decisions.
Meghan, you are just like everyone else. You keep spending so much time pointing out "some people"- I'm talking about the majority. Everyone thinks their part of that tiny % who actually have a legitimate uncontrollable weight problem. That is the MAIN problem & why it isn't going to be fixed anytime soon no matter who does what. People need more than a "hey, you know, it would be better for you if you ate better and exercised more" EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THAT! THEY JUST DON'T CARE! BECAUSE NOBODY IS PUSHING THEM! And maybe trying reading the rest of my posts; your post has numerous false assumptions that I had clarified earlier.
Honestly, I could care less if these fat people stuff their faces & die by the time they're 40. Or live until they're 90. Just as long as I don't have to pay higher insurance for these fools. That's where my ridiculing comes in. Obviously being soft on these people has done NOTHING but make the problem WORSE so it's time we try something different. And like I said before when ridiculing FAT people was normal, there were a LOT less fat people.
Its funny how things change over time. It used to be if you were skinny it was because you were too poor and couldn't afford food. If you were bigger, well you had the money.
Now, if you're fat most likely you have low income. Why? Because it is easier and more affordable to buy ready made meals and junk food.
If you're skinny, you can afford healthier meals, including fruits and veggies. If you really want to get angry at a lot of people, why not try the supermarkets? Or the farmers? Better yet, teach people to grow their own food. I can't tell you how many people in my "cookie- cutter suburbia" neighborhood now have chicken coops in their backyards.
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. TEACH a man to fish, and he'll eat forever."
Seriously Informed, your misguided high horse is starting to look frail and weak. You should get off of it.
What's your point? All I see is a bunch of pointless rhetoric; shall we start quoting the bible or quran as well? All that I can draw from your post is "Now that unhealthy food is cheaper we should just completely let ourselves go and be not only be OK with it, we should also vehemently defend ourselves when questioned." It's pretty pathetic to see so many people that don't even care about their own well being. But whatever, if they die who cares. I just don't want to be supporting dead weight. (no pun intended)
If that's all you draw from my posts then I seriously hope you do not vote. You only see what you want to see.
Who says they don't care about their health? Outwardly it screams no, but deep down they want to be healthy. Once again, it is jerkoffs like you that make them dig in their heels.
And this is little known fact, and its going to shock your system, but everyone dies. I know, crazy isn't it? Stop saying "if they die" it isn't if, its when you nincompoop.
Yes I think people should be healthy, but it doesn't mean I'm going to shove a carrot down their throats and scream in their faces to eat this or else. They know the what else entails.
I'm not trying to shove anything down anyone's throat. I'm saying that if people want to make poor decisions (and we ALL know that it's a poor decision) then they should be able to take some criticism for it. Accountability. And more importantly, pay more for their insurance. Honestly, what LEGITIMATE excuse does 2/3 of America have for being obese?
Do you have a problem with smokers paying more for insurance? I don't hear them complaining if someone calls them a stinky smoker. I know people who would like to quit smoking but just can't seem to do it. My argument is based on logic, not emotion. Make bad choices, expect negative things to happen. Simple as that. Truth is if obesity wasn't a problem in this country, this article wouldn't even exist.
I don't need anyone to tell me fat people are a problem in this country. It's very easy to tell. All you really have to do is go virtually anywhere in public and take a look around.
Some people have medical problems that make them overweight, true some have the option to workout/eat healthier who choose not too & would rather be lazy I agree with you there being as I know some bigger people who are like that. But theres also those that may do all that but still be overweight they can't help it,and I feel they shouldn't have to be ridiculed for something they can't help. I certainly hope that if you have "fatties"(as you called them) in your family or as friends that you don't treat them with that much hostility. It's people(bullies) like you that are the reason, that people are now the feeling the need to kill themselves rather then being ridiculed because of how they look/etc. I'm not saying feel bad for all obese people, I'm just saying don't be so quick to tell them all to "get off their butts & work out & eat healthier" & to just remember that not all of them have that option. You make think that calling overweight people "fatties/mammoths/bohemeths/tubbies" etc. will make them workout to make themselves look how our society feels they should, but in most cases it does not work that way, most of the time it lowers their self esteem or makes them depressed. Skinny/fat(thin/overweight) ugly/beautiful, noone deserves to be picked on & called unnecessary names because of how they look, even it is/was their choice to look how they do.
Also the smokers that I know, tho they may "love" smoking & not be able to quit, don't like being told they stink like smoke. A couple of them have said that being told they stink has gave them "some" motivation to quit, but I know it's hard to quit. I imagine it's just as hard to get the motivation to stop being lazy & to exercise/eat healthier for some overweight people. Altho I can see some of the points you have made, the main thing I don't agree with is the way you feel that we must basically verbally/emotionally abuse overweight people in order to "make" them slim down.
No use talking to a wall anymore (literally haha!) I'm just glad the people of logic (scientists) are on my side when it comes to these worthless fat cadavers.
So how much do you guys want to bet
A Informed is a fat troll trying to piss people off
or
B Informed has a tater tot penis and is trying desperately to make up for it.
Either way, I say we call him TATER til he cries and goes home... with his still tiny penis that just won't grow
How's that for name calling and insults..... That working for ya?
Yeah cruelty is effective/s/
Sorry if this offends you, but that has to be one of the most ridiculous statements here. Just what do you mean by joining "efforts to fight the ever-increasing obesity epidemic with people in your own life or community?" Just how do you do that? How do you work within your community to get fat people to lose the fat? You mean how it's worked with smokers? How did we get people to go from almost half this nation smoking to less than a quarter? It was done by belittling them, ostracizing them and hyper-taxing them. It worked. Is that what a "community" should do to fat people? It's been proven that belittling has worked to make smokers quit. It's been proven that ostracizing them (especially by not letting them smoke in public places) has worked to make smokers quit. It's been proven that by hyper-taxing them has worked to make smokers quit. So should that be done with fat people? Is that what you mean? So many say that belittling fat people and calling them names is counter-productive. Was it for smokers? For some, yes; for most, no. Why shouldn't it work for fat people if it worked for smokers? Nicotine addiction is just as strong as food addiction. Smokers in most of America can no longer light up in public places. It's made many of them quit. Should we do the same with fat people? Maybe not allow them in public places? How about if they go to a restaurant and want to order a double-bacon cheeseburger platter with cheese-covered fries, they're told, because they're fat, they can't have that and must eat a salad? Smokers can't smoke in restaurants; fat people shouldn't be allowed to eat fattening food. Is that what you mean by working within the community? Smokers saw a carton of cigarettes, back in the eighties, going from five bucks to now close to seventy-five to get them to quit. Should fat people have to pay higher taxes on "unhealthy" food? Is that what you mean by working as a "community?" I use to smoke, but the current barrage of "ewww, you're a smoker," and having to stand outside in freezing weather, and having to pay almost ten bucks for a pack of smokes made me quit. Why not do the same to fat people?
So, please explain how people are suppose to be involved in their communities to make fat people thin. Being "nice" and "supportive" and "encouraging" didn't stop smokers. It won't stop fat people from shoveling it in.
Thing is the taxation on fatty food has been proposed and shut down many times. Something about people crying about policing their food choices. Never mind that the kinds of food they're talking about can contribute to hypertension and clogged arteries in thin people too.
Alcohol has long been taxed to death. Nobody seems to care since it doesn't affect light drinkers much and non drinkers not at all. So the taxation of certain foods certainly isn't going to affect those who rarely eat it.
While the demonization of smokers is ridiculous (and to my mind as wrong as demonizing fat people) it is as ridiculous to try to think that restricting where a person can smoke is the same as restricting where a fat person can go. 2nd hand smoke is a known health hazzard to others, fat people are not.
Cream mated, I am going to have to remember that one!
@ paramed and MonroeTL-it is hilarious isn't it-sounds like a hillbilly sex phrase "well ya know him n my cuzzin cream mated and now she's all knocked up!yessir that there's what happened" LOL
This has definitely been one of the funniest comment forums here in a looong time
You can say that it's fat peoples' own fault that they're fat. You can also say that it's stupid peoples' fault that they're stupid. There's probably some truth to both statements, but I'd rather dissect a stupid person than a fat person. It sounds like we have plenty of both.
I went to a bone marrow drive because a little girl was dying of leukemia and desperately needed a transplant. Imagine my shock when I was told I was too fat to donate bone marrow. Well, no offense taken. I took my "fat" H-E-A-L-T-H-Y body and went on about my business. They never found an "appropriate' donor for this poor child and she died about two months later. Perhaps, this fat person would have been the perfect match!
The doctors were just trying to protect you. Anesthesia is much more dangerous for the obese than for those who are not obese. It is heartbreaking that the little girl died, but I would hope that it may serve as a wake up call for you that even if you feel healthy, you are putting quite a bit of stress on your heart and lungs.
thats not too surprising considering they need gain accessto your bones in order to get bone marrow. Having excessive layers of fat over them does not provide easy enough access to the marrow.
courtesy of the bone marrow registry “Regulating anesthesia is more difficult in patients who exceed weight guidelines, which can cause problems with breathing, blood pressure and heart rate,” she wrote. “After surgery, overweight patients are at increased risk from narcotic pain medication, which can further depress breathing.”
I don't think a lot of folks know what healthy weight is. I work in health care and the denial, especially among men, is hard to believe. They can be in the obese catagory and tell us we are wrong-- they are perfectly healthy. They compare themselves to the morbidly obese and think they are just fine.
Can you imagine what their conventions are like?
Flbikerchick, I like your screen name. Just curious, but, based on this article, do you think that modern science would gladly accept your organs, or would they kind of shrug off your generosity and say, "Thanks, but no thanks?" Just curious.
Well, it is their option to have a height and weight scale in place. Why do people get so offended when they don't fit the criteria? There are plenty of options.
Even in death, overweight people are shunned. Shame.
always welcome at wal-marts...always...
It's not being "shunned". It's about science, not personal/playground playmates/lunch table companion preferences and cliques. The article stated solid, perfectly logical reasons why the overweight bodies were not usable.
I was being sarcastic... sarcasm is hard to detect in text format.
Since medical students will be seeing patients of all sizes, shouldn't it be that they can practice on bodies of all sizes? It only makes sense to me.
Not in the beginning of their education (which is when anatomy is taught). We need to see normal anatomy, physiology, etc. before we can understand abnormal or pathological anatomy, physiology, etc. Obesity causes abnormal physiology, pathology, etc. Don't get me wrong - we need exposure to patients of all sizes by the end of our first two years (before rotations); but, anatomy lab isn't really the appropriate place in the curriculum for this.
btw, where I go to school at least, we DO start seeing standardized patients our first semester. These individuals are all different sizes, ages, conditions, etc. 1st semester it's very basic - taking a history. 2nd semester we start doing physical exams (ending with doing a complete H & P on a standardized patients). 3rd semester - we start doing problem specific H & P's. 4th semesters is getting better at this. During 4th semester we also learn suturing, how to start IV's etc., (we practice these on each other or on other things such as pig feet). During our 3rd & 4th semesters we also see a few real patients (doing preceptorships). Then 3rd year we being rotations, where we work in clinics and hospitals.
So, we get a lot of experience with various sized patients without having obese cadavers. But, having obese cadavers make it more difficult to learn normal early in the education.
Summer I wonder how many times you are going to have to explain that before people finally get that basically "you gotta start out small before you go big."
larissa faith: Sadly, it seems to be one of those things that requires repeated explanation. I live how you phrase it "you gotta start out small before you go big."
My thought exactly.
Yes, I read Summer's response. I get it- but still, seems like maybe there is a lost opportunity there.
Why would anyone donate anything to scientist when they can't tell truth when it's right in front of them. They're decieved because they are decievers.
Are you having one of those paranoid moments?
Typical white coats - they suck. Must be nice to think that you are so perfect.
My son graduated Vanderbilt University Medical School last year; when i lamented i could not likely donate organs because of an autoimmune disease, he pointed out how many people could still be impacted positively by donating your body to science.
If organs can't be utilized for living patients, bodies are studied in anatomy class, usually by a team of at least 2 or 3 medical students. Each of those students graduates and goes on to help train other students during their medical residencies and fellowships. Each doctor then goes on, sometimes to continue training students, and/or to treat thousands of patients over their careers.
As several have pointed out in earlier posts, the knowledge gained by studying a human cadaver is invaluable and really offers different knowledge than studying a 3-D or computer model. Both are useful, but the robotics and computer simulations are no equivalent to the "real thing."
To honor our son's commitment to medicine and medical education, the day before Match Day, my husband and I signed forms to donate our bodies to Vanderbilt University Medical School. We were treated with the utmost respect, professionalism, and consideration by the coordinator; the process was explained very carefully, and all questions were answered to our complete satisfaction.
Upon our death(s), if it is deemed some organs can be harvested for use in living patients, that would occur; in this instance, the Medical School would then use remaining body parts for training and educational purposes for interns and residents practicing procedures, etc. If no organs can be donated, our bodies would be used for instruction in anatomy classes.
If you haven't I would urge any interested to make the arrangements while you can. Many schools and programs will not accept a body donation, unless the individual has signed permissions prior to their demise.
Dang Summer, it's like you are beating a dead horse. You don't have to comment for every person who didn't remember reading that med students need to see/know what normal is before they can recogize/work with abnormal, or something like that. lol
RUSERIOUS: I'm bored. Sorry :)
I was glad Summer came back to explain it more than once. For me it helped understanding the difference between normal and common in a situation like this. Looks to me like many of the posters were not getting it.
On the next page we have a poster complaining about "coddled" medical students to good to learn on a fat cadaver. Looks lik s/he barely bothered to read the article let alone try to understand it.
C123: Thank you. You're absolutely right - it's the difference between normal and common. Just an example - myopia is more common than normal vision. Myopia certainly isn't normal though.
I haven't seen the post about "coddled" medical students yet - I'll have to read it. Medical school is about the farthest one can be from "coddled". lol.