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After six years of marriage, Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore are splitting after rumors of infidelity. Here, they are shown at the launch party for
Demi and Ashton (you don’t really need their last names, do you?) have called it quits. Or, rather, Demi has called it quits, apparently, following rumors of Ashton’s moments with a-woman-not-Demi while visiting San Diego.
I write that not because you necessarily care about Ashton and Demi – though a lot of people seem to – but because it brings up the issue of monogamy and if we humans are truly built for it.
The full answer, as you might expect, is pretty complicated. I am currently writing a book with Emory University neuroscientist Larry Young, one of the world’s leading experts in pair bonding -- the way biologists talk about “love” and monogamy in animals -- that attempts to lay it out. But the short answer depends on two things: First, what do we mean when we say monogamy? Second, what’s going on in our brains?
According to Young, only about 3 to 5 percent of mammals form pair bonds between males and females. But even among those that do, “monogamy” does not necessarily mean sexual exclusivity. It means the partners share a social glue, raise a family together and comfort and defend each other. They might very well have sex with the neighbor critter down the block, though.
"Whether humans are monogamous by nature is debatable, and a matter of semantics," Young said.
Monogamy resides in the brain. Young studies voles, small, furry critters found all over North America. One species, prairie voles, is generally monogamous. Another species, the meadow vole, is not. These two species look virtually identical, and even when you look at their genes, there’s barely any difference. But subtle variations in parts of key, brain-related, genes make one monogamous and one promiscuous.
Even within prairie voles, there’s variation. Some are faithful, some play the field. Mounting evidence suggests this is true for people, too.
We know there are differences between human genders, too, with men reporting higher rates of infidelity than women (though women have been slowly catching up). There are several reasons why this might be so, but one is fundamental: Men, especially younger men, have evolved to be readily turned on. Female libido can vary significantly by cycle day.
We don’t like to think that something we regard as so basic depends on a couple of molecules in our heads, the action of which can be determined by how we develop in our mothers’ wombs, or certain life events, but such forces do act on our brains, making us more or less likely to have extra-monogamy sex.
It’s not, as Demi suggested in her press statement, just a question of “values” or “vows.” How monogamy plays out for each of us also has a lot to do with how we are wired.
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Whether we're wired or not is irrelevant if you make a commit you should stick to it, if you don't think you can then don't make the commitment. I'm not one of those people who think monogamy is the only option but if two people choose to be monogamous the person who cheats is at fault whether it's in their nature or not because they chose to go through with it.
Agreed. Unless you are 100% sure you want to spend the rest of your life with that person then DON'T get married. Marraige is for life - make sure you know the person well and are truly committed before going into it. Yes, there are reasons to get divored (abuse comes to mind) but too many people go into marraige with the thinking that if it doesn't work we will just get divorced.
I also agree that the person who cheats is at fault.....it's not the fault of the other spouse or the person they cheated with.
I know too many people (friends and family) who have been married 20+ years - some for over 30 years - and never once has anyone cheated. They all were committed when they went into the marraige and took the vows seriously.
Excuse me, but are you aware that Demi made that commitment to Bruce Willis, and they created 3 children together? A woman looks on infidelity as having sex with another partner. Infidelity by women is primarily not satisfying a partner's sexual desires. Men need sex; women use sex to get something. Once they have what they want - marriage, financial security, children - they lose interest, let their bodies go, and sleep with their backs turned. If a woman wants a man to be sexually monogamous (which is unnatural, since males are programmed to sow their genes as widely as possible), she needs to satisfy his sexual needs herself. Ashton's sexual desires are those of a much younger man, while Demi's have pretty much passed. She's practically menopausal.
Wow, I sure pity your wife....if you have one!!!
Let me guess Jose, you're of a Hispanic upbringing where it's ok to be an a-hole towards women? You can say we're not we're not physically programed to be monogamous, but not ok to say everything you've said about women using sex and men needing sex.
After all, didn't Demi is in pretty good shape and who's to say Ashton needed to outside the marriage because he couldn't keep up with Demi's sexual needs and desires???
I'm sorry, I looked up marriage in the dictionary and I didn't see monogamy as a requirement.
Hmm, let's see there are (and have been) arranged marriages, marriages of convenience, marriages for the sole purpose of enabling sex, marriages with multiple spouses (see muslims, etc.), marriages for financial gain, marriages for security, marriages for the purpose of raising a family, etc.
With all of these 'differing' reasons for marriage, why do we hold monogamy as the only valuable asset of a marriage? I'm not saying it's not valuable, but if any mistake in a marriage can dissolve the marriage, how strong can a marriage ever be? If any mistake could end a business, end a government ,end a world, then it would have ended even Jesus Christ. After all, he sinned, he said so. He was forgiven. Guess Demi isn't that Christian. But if she isn't christian, why is she hung up on her perceptions of the absolute and inviolate morality of monogamy?
Jose, you are dead-on...I couldn't have said it better myself. Well done!
I think Ashton wanted out because everything you acquire during your marriage you have to split 50/50.
I think Ashton did NOT want to share any of the money he's making from his new Two and a Half Men job, which would have meant for every $700,000 Ashton gets, Demi would have been entitled to $350,000 of it.
He still might have to split it though, being that he entered into the contract while they were married.
Men cheat all the time and some never get caught. If Ashton cheated AND got caught, I think he must have wanted to get caught in order to get out of his marriage.
And that age factor is in the room like an 800 lb. gorilla.
It must be difficult being a step dad to girls you otherwise might have been dating.
Cougars generally never marry their boy toys. Demi, call Madonna and ask for a few tips next time.
Jose, are you aware that women hit their sexual prime later then men? Men cheat all the time...with porn. Do you think most women want to be with a guy who looks at porn? If I were a woman, I'd turn my back on you as well.
Proud Hispanic-- you're the one who's dead on here!!! Good comment. Ashton wasn't man enough for beautiful Demi. She can soooo do better. Demi didn't think of Ashton as a "boy toy". I believe she very much in love with him. As I said, we look at porn and think our woman will stay with us. We cheat and think our women will stay with us-- we're sadly mistaken. I think it is we who can't keep up with th women!
Give me a break. If a woman is foolish enough to marry a guy young enough to be her son, no matter how much "work" she has done, this kind of thing is usually inevitible. Maybe as a teen an older good looking woman is a great thing but in later years, reality comes a calling.
She is a grown woman, she knew what she was getting into. Infidelity is written in bold letters over his forehead. He is cool, hot, and self-centered. She wanted it, she got it.
I think that we all need be loved. It is sad that the person she loved does not love her back. Apparently, it is very painful even when you are rich and famous. It also seems that he does not love her any more, so it is not painful for him.
Perheps she'll learn and will do better next time :-(
In this particular case, agreed: Ashton may not be a total A-hole, but he IS a carrier. Demi had to know that this marriage wasn't for the long haul. HOWEVUH, Senor Jose has some archaic, stereotypical views of marriage that transcend Hispanic Machismo. His idea that women no longer want sex after childbearing years suggests he has one unfulfilled wife! And the reason women value monogamy so highly is actually rather prehistoric: the need for the caveman to stick around after mating to care for her and the offspring. This resulted in a social system we call marriage that has proven pretty solid, nurturing and fulfilling for most of us. The trick is to have a long, successful, serial courting (dating) ritual that satisfies the need for variety before snuggling down for happy every after...
I agree. No one forced Kutcher to make the commitment to be monogamous, and he did make it- go back a few years and check out his own words. But once again, men miss the point; women can be very forgiving of an indiscretion- it's the LYING about it that destroys the trust in the marriage, and ultimately the marriage itself.
when the Cat is away, the mice will play..REAL LOVE is hard to find due to; youthfulness & inmaturity..giving your flesh to the devil and later wanting to give ya bones to GOD is a general course..however, wealth makes everything easy & many prefer to die nasty in their dynasty realm..No, I am NOT Judging, i believe everyone has the freedom to choose their own destiny....funky or Not, Our illusion has much Confusion..here today, gone tomarrow, have a sweet Life......
Jose, maybe you havent realized this yet, but women need security, not financial, but emotional. They also like to feel that a man actually cares what they need. Many times, if they let themselves go, and turn their back it is because this need has not been met! It goes both ways!
Yeah, I agree with Jose!!!!
We are "THE OPPOSITE SEX"!!!
Therefore one sex on average is built to have more than one and the other is built to only have one!!!!
Men CANNOT GET PREGNANT!!!!
Therefore, they have a separate role in this world different from a woman!!!
A man is always an individual where as a woman is capable of mutating into more than one individual in a given time frame!!!!
In other words we are OPPOSITE!!!!
Now referring back to relationships and monogamy men, on average have a culture of having more than one sexual partner.
Women on the other hand have always had a culture of being only with one man!!!!!
Maybe this is because the woman can be many while the man only can be one!!!!
We are going to be attracted to the opposite...
DUGHHH!!!!
What women need to do is stop trying to be men and accept their role as a woman!!!
They are wired to have babies and take care of families. No Pun intended and not to say they are to be disrespected. But it is what it is and to deny the truth is to continue to take yourself through Hell no matter how hard it is to accept.
Agreed. If you commit, you should plan on staying faithful to that commitment. However, unfortunately we come to this place (adulthood) less than prepared. Even though I remember taking a "family Planning" course in High-school, they in no way even suggested that there was any other way than monogamy to have a relationship. Combining that with poor role models that many of us had, we come to adulthood ready or not to be monogamous. And many of us just cannot deal with monogamy. I struggled with monogamy for most of life so far. Only to finally realize over the course of the last decade that there is another way. You can find and enjoy a committed-emotional relationship while still having sex with others outside of that primary relationship. Though it is hard to change the thinking ingrained in us, it can be done and can be rewarding too.
Peel-Layer, what a disgusting, male-chauvinistic, self-serving piece of crap you had the nerve to post. I suspect if we were to "peel" the layer, we'd find more rot underneath. The "Me-man, must sow seed, you woman must stay home and pop out babies" view of the world should have gone out with the cave man. Sure, men may have biological urges, but they also have brains and (for the most part) the ability of rational thought and self-control. These are things the voles in the study lack. What sets humans apart from other species on this planet is our ability to think, to reason and to control our actions. You seem to want to deny or do away with all that. As for women trying to be "men" -- what bullsh!t is that????? A woman wanting to be fully fulfilled human being, expressing her thoughts, her needs, her skills is perfectly natural and in no way "wanting to be a man." Women are far more than a walking uterus!! We have brains and have every right to use them. Yes, our sexual organs are different. Our roles in the act of reproduction are different. That does not mean that our entire existence should be defined by this ONE aspect of biology, you unbelievable jerk! And by the way, women may carry the babies, but in a very real sense, men are a part of getting "pregnant" -- so why should the rest of pregnancy be entirely the woman's responsibility? That's basically what you are saying. You, as a "man" have every right to impregnate any woman you want and walk away, because the rest is the woman's work. You are why we have cultural rules that have evolved over thousands of years to try to protect women from predators like you. You want to know why culture has evolved to include concepts of monogamy and men being responsible to the women they impregnate -- look in the mirror. You are the reason - and all the j@ck@ss out there just like you.
And, by the way, countless men over the years have managed to stay faithful to the woman they vowed to be true to in monogamous societies. Just because you can't (or don't want to) keep it in your pants does not mean that it is impossible.
Sorry but there is not a scientific explanation for what is essentially selfish behavior. Are thieves wired to steal? Are Wall Street bankers wired to cook the books? Are politicians wired to lie? Nope. Some people are just selfish. They're getting what they want and they don't care.
ruth-3451746 - "Agreed. Unless you are 100% sure you want to spend the rest of your life with that person then DON'T get married. "
From the male perspective, if the woman won't deliver children, dump her within four years. Marriage is for children. Fundamentally, marriage is an institution that offers financial benefits to women and complete oppression of the male desire for sexual quantity and variety.
As for Ashton, he should have 20 kids. Post-fertility Demi delivered exactly zero.
jiminyjiminy, since when is watching porn cheating on your spouse? If you MAKE a porn with someone other than that person you're married to, then hell yeah, that's cheating, but if you're not actually rumpling the sheets with another person when you watch a x-rated scene, I don't see the big deal. I know tons of people aren't into it, and if you're not, don't watch it, and don't blame the people who do.
Otherwise, I'm going to have to agree with most everyone else here...if you don't think you can make the commitment to be married to someone for the rest of your life and not stray, then don't get married. If you walk in knowing you're the kind of person who will give up on something like that, go ahead and kick yourself in the ass and walk away before you exchange rings. Hearts will be broken but they'll find someone better, eventually. And Vincent, how do you know they wanted kids? Maybe at that age (40 not being the new 30 anymore, uterus-wise) Demi had a health family history that pre-disposed not having kids at her age. Maybe Ashton wasn't ready to be a dad. Unless you're their personal limo driver/butler/whatever and have eyes and ears on them all the time, that sort of thing is all speculation. I think Demi's smart to walk away before there were any shared kids in the marriage and there was more drama and legal matters to deal with, if she wasn't happy.
Let's be honest, there's nothing really in marriage for the male. Nothing to gain, half your paycheck afterwards to lose if you fail.
I'd say 75 to 85% of men get married because of pressure from their woman. I dont think I've ever met a guy that said "I can't wait until i get married! And I hope it's soon!"
Women typically start getting ancy around 25-28 year age range, when they get much more self-conscious about their looks/ability to have kids. And 9 times out of ten, the male rolls over and drops tens of thousands of dollars on a ceremony and offically signs away half of his future earnings on a little piece of paper.
My husband actually pressured me into getting married. I wanted to wait a little longer. He didnt. We also only spent about 800$ on everything (including my gown and accessories) and I paid for it. I also paid for the plane tickets to TX where we got married, and then tickets to where he was currently living (we were separated for a couple months because of his job) Im pretty sure that a good chunk of men were as excited about getting married as he was, and also dont spend ridiculous amounts of money that is unnecessary...
I am currently going thru a divorce, after 15 years. She was unfaithful to me... NOT the other way around, funny enough, thats not why we split, we split because I realized that I wasn't "in love" with her and I had fallen "IN LOVE" with someone else. However, rather than be unfaithful, I decided to just get out of the marriage first. I am now currently with a woman that I am madly and desperately in love with, the feeling is mutual, and I CANT WAIT to be able to marry her. :)
That's emotional cheating dude. There's not a woman in the world that isn't going to see your situation as anything else. OK, maybe one. You were falling in love with another woman while married? That's cheating. Faithful men aren't open to 'falling for other women'.
The answer to "Why do we cheat?" is simple. Humans are NOT built to be monogamous, period. With most births averaging one offspring, not multiples like other animals, monogamy would not sustain our species. Monogamy is societal and is a relatively recent concept with regards to the length of time humans have been on this planet.
The institute of marriage basically says once you have a ring put on your finger, you are magically able to overcome hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary development. Then when someone is caught cheating, there's something wrong with them and they're acting outside the norm -- when in fact, they're being as normal as humanly possible.
At the end of the day cheating is a CHOICE one makes. If a person has made a committment to stay faithful to only one person and then breaks that committment, then there IS something wrong with them. There is this thing humans have that most animals do not. It's called self control and as jim burton said "the mental faculty to override their instincts" People need to stop making excuses for being less than civilized.
Then using your logic, eating is also a CHOICE that one makes. We can't turn off the drive to eat just like we can't turn off the drive to procreate. Claiming that we're some sort of advanced animal because we have the ability to suppress our drives doesn't mean they don't exist and have an influence on our actions or decisions.
I'm not condoning breaking commitments, but as smart as we humans are, we shouldn't be shocked when it happens.
It is ridiculous to say that monogamy would not sustain our species. Are you friggin kidding me? Ever heard of the Duggers? One man + one woman + no birth control = lots of children. That is just silly to say that we could not survive as a species without people sleeping around. Poppycock, I say. Find your excuse somewhere else. Don't get married if you don't want to be faithful. It's that simple.
The Duggars are nowhere near the norm, even in today's society where our technology is incredibly advanced and there's no societal need to boost the population. Comparing them to a family alive thousands of years ago and to say that a monogamous couple could produce 19 healthy offspring is ridiculous.
Let me see if I could explain it a little simpler. Say there was a huge catastrophe on the Earth and only 6 people survived (3 men and 3 women). If you believe that the re-population of our species with a diverse blend of genetics to decrease the risk of abnormalities could be done solely through monogamy, you are terribly mistaken.
Monogamy is a modern concept and goes against our nature as humans.
OhMy999999: With 7 billion and counting, I don't think we're having a problem repopulating the species.
well said rebecca.
Deb-997319: self control, "the mental faculty to override their instincts"
Sort of like using a copper penny to override a blown fuse. It may work for a while but eventually it will heat up and cause major problems.
I don't think it's that simple, and am not shocked when I hear of folks cheating.
My wife and I have been together for years, including before marriage. She doesn't try to change me in any major way, she hasn't changed herself, and I don't try to change her (great the way she is). I haven't cheated on her and I'm very sure she hasn't cheated on me.
I have seen other couples change after marriage though, and it seems the person / people the commitment was made to is / are no longer part of the relationship. Also, some people get married way too soon, even before the initial infatuation is over. The results are often, well, unshocking.
Seen different studies, different stats, but the low surveys seem to be 1 in 5 women / almost 1 in 3 guys cheat and the highest survey I've ever seen is 75% men / 50% women. Also seems there are over a million fathers in the US raising children that aren't their own out there (around 3-4%). With cheating being such a common occurrence, I won't spend my time judging these people negatively.
The world is over populated, so let's not use as an excuse, man’s primal need to plant his seed everywhere. As someone wrote earlier, we are civilized and have freewill to make choices; as well as suffer the consequences. Cheating happens for many reasons, but it is always a choice.
Ashton and Demi’s initial romance boosted their passion, i.e. careers, so the relationship grew to marriage. Their marriage was the poster child for every Cougar's wishful-May/December romance/marriage. Ashton wasn't about to give that up. People barely know him from the 70s sitcom, fewer from the Punk-ed show. Ashton did a few TV commercials and had a go with Twitter, but he is best known for his marriage to Demi.
Always searching for his niche, he held on tight to his hold card (marriage). When he was chosen to replace Charlie Sheen on TVs #1sitcom, Ashton didn't need his hold card anymore. For Demi, as sexy as she is, Ashton was too young, period. I think he wanted out a long time ago. What a better way to go, then to do it with a cheap bimbo, followed by his tacky twitter message that said something to the effect --we had a good run!
I agree. We could say we're wired to engage in all sorts of actions animals would understand but civilized humans do not. Being human is a more moment-by-moment conscious effort for some, but as much as they've been wired to act like animals, they've also been given the mental faculty to override their instincts. Otherwise we might as well all be giving excuses for less then desired behaviors.
Oh here we go again! Yes, we are animals, but we are animals that can choose to not obey our biology. I've noted that men especially love to excuse their behavior by crying that they simply couldn't help themselves - it was their biology that made them wound their children, destroy their families and break their promises, vows and oath. Women prefer to excuse their behaivor by claiming love or loneliness. Sure, like that's a good excuse for hurting people. What cheaters can't seem to admit to themselves, male and females alike, that they are making a choice to let their biology rule them. It's an excuse, like and alcoholic who blames his job for his drinking....
If having mutliple sex partners is that important to you, then don't marry. Don't promise something you aren't willing to live up to. Oh and make sure to tell all prospective partners that you are likely to cheat. Just be freaking honest. *sigh*
Why would you choose to not obey your biology?
Very good differnet. There are so many people here posting who are making excuses for being a lowlife!
I do like the idea of telling prospective partners that you are not looking for monogamy if you're not. The reverse is also true. Don't claim you're cool with being polygamous if you secretly want to gain exclusivity later.
So I suppose it is OK to act on angry feelings and pee in public as well? We have the ability to control our urges, it's part of what makes us human. This article is absolutely correct that monagamy resides in our mind, but as a BELIEF. What we believe will eventually play itself out in how we act. If getting your rocks off is more important than respecting the person you made a commitment to, you will eventually be unfaithful. If you can't handle that then don't make a commitment. But don't blame it on how you were wired.
We have some ability to control our urges. Often, however, we think we have more ability than we really do. You have some control over your breathing. You can hold your breath for a while. But you will lose that control before you pass out. For your example of peeing: Suppose that, for 4 weeks straight, you are in public and do not have the option of privacy. Do you think you can control your urges that long?
Now, does cheating eventually face a biological imperative that we can only delay but not eliminate? I really don't know. But I don't think anyone else here does either, no matter how much people shout that it's a "choice." And it may also only be an imperative to seek out sex. Cheating may only be inevitable when the monogamous partner cuts off access, just like public urination only becomes inevitable when privacy is not accessible.
I don't have the answers. But I think I am asking the right questions.
Oh sure. Don't you hate it when your pants fall down with that unzipped zipper and you find your penis in a lady's vagina? Geez, it just happened. That is such a bunch of crap. Cheating doesn't have to be inevitable and there are many people who don't cheat. Anyone who seriously thinks that cheating is some biological imperative that simply can't be resisted is just making excuses.
Zip it, button it up, and go home. If you don't want to be there get a divorce, but don't tell me you just happened to find your penis stuck somewhere besides your wife and it wasn't controllable. You have a hand and you have the ability to work on your marriage if you want to be in it. If you have problems turn to each other and not someone else, and guess it never occurred to those saying it wasn't available that maybe you might be part of why she isn't interested? Or that there may be good reasons besides that? Be a partner, help out, treat her (him well), and if you have worked on it and it doesn't work get out of it and heal before you screw up another relationship jumping in one.
There are many people who don't go around seeking sex if they don't happen to be getting any for various reasons, and the, "poor dears" can zip it up and talk to their partners if they feel neglected in some way. The "I can't help myself and am only human" excuse is just that.
Ram:
Let's look at your argument a little more carefully.
"Don't you just hate it when those cheeseburgers jump into your mouth unbidden and ruin your diet? Anyone who thinks that eating is some biological imperative is just making excuses."
Well, it just doesn't work, does it. You start off looking to ridicule and so make up something that your opponent never said. Then you go one to say that anyone who considers a view different than your own is "making excuses." Come back when you're serious.
Pvblivs
Your critique doesn't even make sense. You just don't like what ram is saying because you like your excuses to do whatever you want to h#ll with the consequences. For one, ram never once claimed his/her partner said anything. What Ram actually did was rephrase your argument in a humorous way that was, pretty much, in line with what you claim to be the case -- the idea that sometimes, these things just happen and it can't be helped. Ram phrased it in a humorous way to point out how truly silly that argument is -- these things do not "just happen" -- the pants do not just "fall down" and penises do not just "fall into vaginas." The use of humor was rhetorical devise that you clearly are not able to comprehend, and that is sad for you. The point is, cheating is a deliberate act. Claiming it can't be helped is an excuse -- not because you do not agree with Ram, but because it is, in fact, an excuse. Ram simply called it what it was. You may choose to disagree, it doesn't mean there was anything inherently incorrect to ram's comment.
Saddened:
Ram misrepresented his opponent's position (that would be my position) when he used the appeal-to-ridicule " Don't you hate it when your pants fall down with that unzipped zipper and you find your penis in a lady's vagina?" What I did was rephrase his nonsense as it would apply to eating.
I understand humor just fine. I also understand the misuse of ridicule while calling it humor.
We have some control over our actions. But that control is not complete. If you try to starve yourself for weeks, the urge of hunger will become so overpowering that you cannot think straight. Now, I concede that I do not know if the urge to seek out sex will become similarly overpowering in the face of being "cut off" by your spouse. But people like you saying, "it's an excuse because it's an excuse" don't either.
If you deny a man any legal means of procuring food, sooner or later, he will steal. The well-fed can clamor "it's a deliberate choice" and "it's a despicable selfish act" all they want. The reality is that, ultimately, eating is a biological compulsion. Our ability to choose not to do it is limited. You have not provided any reason to conclude that the same does not hold for the sex drive. Of course, it has not been established that it does hold for the sex drive either. It is an open question.
" because you like your excuses to do whatever you want"
Projecting much? I am not married. I do not have a significant other. And I am sufficiently unattractive that I could not find a mate if my life depended on it. If your reasoning had any merit, I would be on your bandwagon.
Ram created a strawman argument. You like Ram's position so you lie and say it was a legitimate rephrasing of my position. I say, come back when you're ready to be serious and drop the strawman.
Comparing sex to food is not a good comparison. You don't need sex to live. You do need food to live. Yes, sex is a biological urge, just like eating, BUT you can live without sex. You will not die without sex. If you need it that badly, use your hand.
It is all about fitness and an "unfaithful" male has more chance of offspring. A social bond however allows the female help raising her limited by biology number of young.
Fidelity is not simple for, I would say, most people. Lifelong monogamy is not natural for humans, as far as biology goes. Serial monogamy has become quite acceptable and is probably closer to what humans biologically are "programmed" for. But that's not to say people can't be monogamous for life. It takes a lot of discipline for most people. As humans, no matter how much we love our partner, no matter how great our sex life with them might be, we are still going to notice other people and find other people attractive. Good people make bad decisions sometimes or get into compromising situations, it is not always a personal attack on their significant other. Yes, we have the ability to choose to do or not do something, but I don't think it should always be a deal breaker.
Sure we all find other people attractive. I've always said you can shop, you just can't buy. Been married for 38 years and have never cheated. If one feels the need to cheat then get a divorce.
While I appreciate you not cheating physically...aren't you kind of not devoting yourself to your wife completely by "shopping"....you already "bought" what you want. Why keep shopping? As good as you say your marriage is, without knowing you or your wife, I wonder if she's truly satisfied with your "shopping".
I dont expect my husband to never find someone else attractive. I do expect him to not act on it. He can look if he must, (and has the decency to not do so if I am standing right there) BUT just because he looks at someone, doesnt mean he would have sex with her. Just because he finds someone attractive doesnt mean he NEEDS to go have sex with her. Just like if a guy caught my eye, I dont feel the need to just go f*ck him. I know Im not the only female in the world, and Im sure Im not the most attractive either. My husband is still satisfied with me, and Im satisfied with him. There is more to life than just sex, and more to sex than just good looks.
Thank you, Becca. I'm not naive to think that my husband won't ever find other women physically attractive but he married me for just more than just my body-for everything we have in common, for the life we want to share, for the new things that we want to do together. You're not the only woman in the world that thinks that way, either.
Is any of you the slightest bit aware that in many societies, from the middle east, to africa, to asia, polygamy is perfectly acceptable? The reason for monogamy is that it allows the wealthy to pay less for labor. It takes a lot of money to support a harem of wives and many children, but not so much to support one wife. That's why polygamy is found only among the wealthy. Then, once women got into the workforce, the dual incomes allowed price inflation which has now forced most married women to work outside the home, which reduces their sex drive and increases male infidelity. Christianity is the reason for most of the monogamy in America, which results in sexual repression and brings on men having to sneak out for sexual gratification. Otherwise, wealthy people such as John Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Tiger Woods and Arnold Schwarzeneger would have multiple wives and wouldn'd need to patronize loose women seeking to be with men of power and wealth.
"The reason for monogamy is that it allows the wealthy to pay less for labor." Are you fricking kidding? That is one of the most moronic things I've ever heard anybody say!
Jose, crawl back under your rock, you're a Neanderthal! No, I take that back...you're evolved less than Neanderthals...grab your club and hit the woman over her head and drag her back to your cave.
Jose, you are just full of yourself. If you don't want to be monogamous then don't, but don't blame Christianity for people sneaking out. You can choose not to marry if you simply can't keep yourself zipped and save someone a lot of heartbreak, and working outside the home doesn't mean women can't have sex drive. It is more that some men (you from the sound of it) don't help and act as true partners, so their wives are indeed too tired to enjoy sex. Oh wait, you must be one of those truly enlightened men who think that staying home with kids is really easy...oh sure.
You don't know much about this topic...wow.
I worked 10hr days, and still wanted sex every night. Ive been more worn out from chasing my toddler around all day then I ever have at work. Yet, I still have sex most nights. My husband actually pays attention to me, and respects me as an equal partner. If you think the problem is the wife works, then maybe you should take a look in the mirror..
We are wired to cheat because we are sinners. It takes a strong love (not lust) and commitment to stay faithful. Cheating is wrong because it hurts those we love the most.
We are all sinners? Lame myth...
Still making excuses for your bad behavior. Cuz what you're telling me is murder, stealing, rape, lying, cheating, etc. are all ok because there is no sin. Ok, try telling that to the cops......
Regardless of your religious beliefs, there is no denying the fact that humans are sinners. Have you looked around lately? I'm sure you are claiming to not be a sinner? That is a lie, Danny B. Lying is a sin.
Rebecca and fights: This is a subtle philosophical point, but look at it. The idea of "sin" implies that there is some ultimate judge over people. I maintain that the idea of an "ulimate judge" is a fairy tale. If there is morality in the world, WE must make it happen. Not from fear of divine punishment, but because it is justice, fairness, and wisdom. To me, the word sinner is simply not a real word. If you are right, the Inquisition was not one of the worst mistakes "believing" human beings ever made. I know the Inquisition was a vile excercise in human arrogance, and ignorance.
I don't hear either one of you throwing the first stone. That's good.
I am definitely wired for fidelity. Especially when I find a girl who is faithful, highly intelligent, perfect in manners, funny, rich, generous, always agreeable, flexible, perpetually horny, willing to give me "me" time, always beautiful, and a daily shape-shifter. Piece of cake...
your looking for your self, intresting no one is always agreeable, there is no such thing as two person alike even identical twins are not alike they look the same, sneeze the same, they even laugh the same which is very creepy, but they have two different personality.
try to be more flexible there is no such thing as the perfect person, when you accept the defects/ baggage of the person and allow the person to accept your deffects/ baggage then you have a common ground of understanding, the relationship can be long term this is only a theory
Danny B. in PA: Here, here! I'm all of those things and MORE (as well as desperate, apparently)! And my shape is always shifting for the better (that is to say, I take care of my body. Ha ha. . .). Not gonna say I'm always beautiful, though, 'cause then I'll come off as conceited. . . And a liar. Oh, wait. . . I'm not rich, either. . . Never mind, then. Keep looking, I guess! I'm sure there are girls like that who exist in reality, though. You just might never get lucky enough to encounter one. . .
And if such a woman existed, she would identify you as a jerk at a thousand paces and head for the hills.....
Yeah, Danny, and if you saw you and looked at what you are expecting she would laugh at you for being so self-centered. I'm guessing you haven't thought much about your own qualities as a partner, but I can tell you that you don't fit all your own criteria...lol.
Incidentally, it's totally irrelevant (especially at this point), but I'm sure I meant "Hear, hear!" Noticed that error a while ago, and it was starting to drive me crazy.
Do-me should have stayed with Bruce rather than marry a child. She must have been watching 'that 70's show' one day and decided 'I just love fart jokes and immature boys' 'I'll think I'll marry that boy'. Doomed from the start.
Agreed!
It just goes to show that men aren't the only ones who screw up when it comes to relationships. Men are demonized when they do wrong or make bad choices.
I don't remember hearing anyone demonizing Demi Moore when she left a good husband and father like Bruce Willis. Instead, people make excuses for her decision and thought it was so great when she got with that bonehead Ashton Kutcher.
Both genders make bad choices. Both should face equal consequences. In my experience, though, it's usually men being made to look like the bad guy while women slide by on excuses thanks to "feelings" and other crap like that.
I agree also. I knew this marriage wasn't going to last. And I'am not sure if Ashton just wanted to ride on Demi's coat tails to further his fame. I also thought as Ashton got older he would some day want children of his own and Demi is to old.
Younger guys will almost NEVER stay with an older woman. People are hard-wired to have the urge to have children, and eventually the guy will look (consciously or not) for someone who still can.
Not only that, but older women mainly get involved with younger guys because of sex.
How can older women expect a serious relationship based on this? You can't. No relationship based solely on sex ever works.
Also when a woman marries someone 15 years younger than them, how much longer before hubby starts looking more at the daughter who is almost their age versus the much older wife. Ashton - watch out for John McClanahan, he will come get you.
When a woman marries somebody 15 yrs. younger she's gambling.By that age she's been there done that the man has'nt.
So unless he's madly in love with her,it's a gamble,big time.Don't bother getting married it is not worth it!
By the tone of your writing when reading it seems that you have had a bad experience during your youthful days up to now and are down on the whole age differential between a woman and man. And JOSE, you are no example of a man for which any child(ren) should follow by no means, and should you have actually become married I doubt your wife is very happy and in love with you. Your writing tells it all, you are not worth it for marriage or to be a father. AND, to all of you, marriage between the sexes with a different age gap CAN WORK. In fact, I am Demi's age soon (dec.) and I have been with my HUSBAND since he was 19yrs of age, he is now 40yrs. We have 2 beautiful daughters who are bright, intellligent and will go places in life. Both have a GPA of 4.138 and 4.128 (11th & 7th graders) and I am as excited and in love with my husband as he is with me, and yes I know he is. I stay at home and he works from home, so we are together A LOT! I enjoy it, love it, and would never give what I have with him a second thought. Never have and no regrets. As to the matter of sexual desires, he has always fulfilled mine, as I have his...we are still going strong in that area and when a woman approaches her 40's, her interest in sex increases whereas a man's usually occurs in his 20's and 30's. I am not fat, dumpy and neither is he. We
No, what I'm saying is it is a Gamble.You know that.You're taking a chance.What I should of reinforced was not all May December marriages are all a disaster.I myself would not get married under these circumstances, that's what I believe.
It's quite easy to tell the gender of a poster here from the comments they make. Wow.
What I always want to know, where was the other spouse while the first one was cheating? If/when couples are acting and living like couples, there's no time, opportunity, etc to cheat.
It only takes a moment, even with the partner right there.
Yeah, Danny, it only takes a minute for your pants to fall off and you to land on some lady with your parts joined...umm k. You can still choose to say no in one moment each moment.
They could be at work, at the store, visiting friends, sleeping in the next room... Not every married couple is together 24/7...
Couples were happier before the information explosion and telecommunications revolutions happened. Now everyone talks about the inadequacy of what they have (as socially diagnosed, and popularly witnessed), and how they can do better at the push of a button. They may have had more problems before, but they also had less options. How would any of you treat a partner if it was your "last chance for romance"? Conversely, we can certainly decide to look no further by identifying with the one we are with. Not an easy thing. As in all things, it's the hard road that has the real rewards, and also builds character in people. Take it from me, a fool.
Well Jose, I think I can speak for all married women on your ideas of marriage. We lose interest in sex from men like you because we are to busy raising those children you gave us, paying bills, balancing the checkbook from your so-call financial security you gave us, (HA!!! most women have to go and get an education and a job if they want financial security) Then we have to clean the house, do laundry, make dinner, help kids with the homework etc....While you men sit on your fat arse and talk about how stressful a day you had. Then you hop into bed expecting to be "serviced". Go ahead and find another girl Jose to sow your oats with. Eventually your wife will figure you out for the loser you are and find a real man who can take on responsibility. With your statements about letting ourselves "go" is only indicitive of you being a fat, lazy slob.
OUCH, Jose...
Ohhh, well said, Delgena!!!
You guys who don't get any loving might want to consider what you contribute to the relationship and how much of your lack of sex if your own doing. How about you grow up and stop blaming everyone but yourself?
How do I say this nicely? Delgena, you are tripping! WE wanted kids together. I didn't GIVE them to her. I served in the military going to places I did not want to go, made to do things I did not want to do, while she was a stay-at-home Mom, living in the comforts of our home! I was as committed to her as anyone could be. She's tired from the kids, I'm tired from work! I do all kinds of "chores" at home. You women don't have the market. I do laundry, have cooked, washed dishes, etc. I also do all the yard work, fix the cars (I don't put them in a shop!), and fix ANYTHING ELSE that needs fixing. She has security and then some from me, so don't give me that BS! Sex is a major player in the marriage and women DO use it (or not) based on their mood. It has to be on her schedule, when she wants, what she wants, how she wants. We have been together over 20 years. I don't condone cheating but the same bible that talks against infidelity (whether you believe the bible or not) also states that husbands and wives should not deny one another (sexually) so infidelity does not occur. This forum is not long enough, nor do I have the time to discuss all the ways she has said no. Personally, I'm sick of it! Yes, marriage is a commitment, and ALL aspects of the marriage are agreed upon by both spouses. But when one does not hold up their end of the agreement, don't expect the other to! It takes two!
Well, somebody needs marriage counseling
On the topic of Hollywood weddings... how much longer before Brad Pitt leaves Angelina? I don't see him sticking around with a flock of kids to manage... just my opinion. You read it here first. Also why does Brad always look like some homeless guy? Long stringy hair, unkept beard. He usually looks pretty disgusting. Angelina has much more class than that. She always looks like a movie star.
marriage? dang i can not even keep a boy friend! i get so bored with the same thing within a year, i am not meant to have one person, i would like to have two or three, they each have something different about them that i enjoy/ and NO it is not always about the sex,,,,i am talking interests, hobbies, communication, and other things that are just as important to a relationship..
exactly. It is a huge strain on individuals to expect monogamy. We are advanced enough to have an open society where each individual pulls his or her own weight but because of old ideologies, people get confused and go on with the marriage concept. I would guess that most of the time, it ends up a mistake and a stress....certainly not productive or elevating. If you know it is not for you, do not be afraid to spend your life a free person. It is priceless.
These two had an open relationship and both Demi and Ashton were screwin around. Ashton made it too public so Demi gets to call it off and Ashton looks like the douche bag.
I heard that too. I do not understand why they simply not enjoyed each other as long as the going was good. Why make it stressful with this marriage thing ? Now they have to get mixed up with lawyers and divide their fortune as they each end up with much less that they would have had had they remained single. Lawyers make huge profits. The misconception is huge and in many case...silly. Why bother ? Keep individual houses as well....cohabitation is too close to the marriage concept.
Too bad people still insist on seeing this as a clear cut issue. Sex, and the possibility of sex with other partners than your spouse, is something to be talked about over the years. A relationship has to grow and be nurtured and fed to stay in harmony. For some couples, there comes a time when having sex with other people can be a good and healthy thing, but in order for it to be consensual, it has to be at least brought up. Panicked absolutism does not help any difficult discussion, especially this one.
I suggest that everyone here who believes in free-will and the "wired for" argument reconsider the whole thing. Either we make free choices, or we do not. Science is leaning toward the idea that we DO NOT. Religion always said we do, but we know how outdated religious ideas are becoming. And for damn good reasons.
I understand the argument that monogamy is hardly second nature to us, but I do think it's possible for almost anyone to be faithful to his or her spouse if he or she is REALLY damn serious about it. I cheated on a couple of boyfriends in my youth, but that was mainly because I was young (not that being young is a GOOD excuse, but it is an excuse nevertheless.) and inexperienced and wasn't ready for any deep commitments -- which is the key point, there. However, when I was 20, I got seriously involved with a guy and was faithful to him for four and a half years (as long as we were together.). . . Our relationship was far from ideal, and there were a few occasions where I was extremely tempted to "stray" from him with a couple of different men. I didn't, though! Despite my past transgressions in other relationships. My feeble point is simply that it takes a LOT of work and self-restraint to be monogamous. . . But I think one's spouse or significant other should be worth the effort. We're still a part of the animal kingdom, sure, but I don't think that should absolve us from behaving like brainless, promiscuous jackasses.
Oh, treating Demi and Ashton as any kind of an example for what average people go through is wrong. They are under a whole different set of pressures. Because they are stars, and their private lives are made public, it is much harder to be reasonable.
Have any of you considered the possibility that maybe the Ashtons out there have good reasons for the things they have done? Maybe the Demis arent always such angels. I don't know if that is true, but I find it interesting how everyone always assumes the "cheater" is the bad guy. It is entirely possible that the cheater has endured far more than most people would, and maybe he has very good reasons for everything he has done.
If that's the case, then get out of the marriage first. No excuse for cheating, though I do believe humans are flawed and that we make mistakes. But that's the point, it's a mistake to cheat. If you're in a bad relationship, get out, don't cheat.
There is a door. If the other person is so bad then leave and go have all the sex you want. Sure, sometimes one or both feel neglected, and sure, sometimes partners suck. So you go work on it together or you get divorced, but sticking around to sneak around and cheat isn't the answer. You can't make others do all you want them to or be good partners, but you can choose your own behavior.
If that's the best you can do, don't write that book. And study up on the behavioral affects of culture.
I will study up on the behavioral affects of culture, if you study up on the realities of life.